DEATH WISH MOVIE: Good or Bad Filosofy ?

In an idealized situation, a man who steps up and saves your loved one is great.
In actual life, it rarely happens the way of the movie writers.

Incidentally, " protecting others from similar violent death "
is absolutely impossible.

your cowardice

Endymion wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Incidentally, " protecting others from similar violent death "
is absolutely impossible.

does that answer your question above?

U assert that travel thru time
is impossible ?
OK; I 'll concede that point, for now.
( Some folks believe that where there is a will, there 's a way. )

OmSigDAVID wrote:

your cowardice

Quote:

that's not easy to take from a man who doesn't know me

It 'd be LESS ez to take the abuses of a malicious criminal.

Its better to HAVE a gun and not NEED it,
than it is to NEED a gun and not have it; ( the same as any other insurance ).

Quote:

You bang on about revenge -
and how a man is a coward if he doesn't get out there and have his.
So, have you had YOUR revenge, Dave? - do tell...

Revenge has its place,
but I was addressing DEFENSE,
so far as I remember.
( I will concede tho, that if my loved one were abused
[which did not happen]
I 'd deem myself honor bound to avenge her. )

Truth be told, Endy,
I have had a good life.

I 'm trying to remember any incident
that I had to avenge.
At the moment, I cant remember any.
I have always been treated with courtesy,
so far as I recall.

I fail to remember any incident that required vengeance.
David

A man loses loved one(s) to criminals. Said man begins a vendetta to kill all criminals he can ferret out for an undisclosed time, perhaps forever.

If this is defense, I wanna know what its's defense of.

A man loses loved one(s) to criminals.
Said man begins a vendetta to kill all criminals he can ferret out
for an undisclosed time, perhaps forever. [ I think it was forever; it was his hobby. ]

If this is defense, I wanna know what its's defense of.

aidan wrote:

Hi David - Happy New Year!

Happy New Year, Rebecca !

Quote:

I understand the sentiment behind your theory-
that you'd like the good people to be kept safe from the bad people at any cost.

Well, there is not much cost;
just defending oneself from violent attack, if it presents itself.

Quote:

But I think that if you really stop to think about it,
you'd have to agree that it might adversely affect our society in ways we
couldn't even begin to imagine if we were to have ordinary people
transform themselves into remorseless killing machines- even if they only
confined themselves to killing criminals.

Even if it DID,
the victims of the attacks still have the inalienable right to defend themselves
from the criminals who r attacking them.

Quote:

I think it's easy to get so immersed in your work and/or career choice
(which in your case has been the law/legal system) to such an extent that
you see the harm criminal behavior visits on society everyday and you
just want it to be eradicated.

Yes, but regardless of that:
see above ( i.e., the rights of the individual are supreme, qua self defense ).

Quote:

I feel the same way about illiteracy- because I have to see the negative effects it visits on people who are experiencing that reality.

But there's a way to go about things.
And Charles Bronson's character is most likely continuing the destruction of his own soul
that the criminals who killed his wife and daughter started-
although hollywood has made it seem that he's highly satisfied with himself
and his results outwardly.

I saw no evidence of soul destruction in the movie.
( I don 't believe I 've seen soul destruction in any movie that I recall. )

Quote:

If you want to talk about logic- how would it all logically work?

Well, the Bronson character goes about his business,
in bad neighborhoods ( once he flashed cash ) and waits for a predatory attack.
Then he counterattacks, endeavoring to nullify the threat.

Quote:

Would the burgeoning criminal who was born into poverty
and abuse get to kill his or her abuser?

Not in the Bronson scheme of things,
( unless the abuser becomes violent ).

Quote:

Or would people who society deemed innocent and worthy

WHO ?

Quote:

have to die before anyone received carte blanche to kill that particular murderer
before he or she moved on to mercilessly cleaning the streets of "lowlifes"?

I don t understand the question.

Quote:

I agree with Edgar and Endy that children shouldn't watch these films.

If I were a child,
I 'd consider a violation of my rights,
the same as u wud if someone did that to u now.

Quote:

They send a dangerous message:
if people cross you - get rid of them- blow them away.

That is what free speech is all about.
Sometimes it is controversial.
No one has to listen.

Quote:

Trouble is - it might not be a criminal on the street -
it might be the bully at school (who by the way is being bullied at home)
or your parents who won't let you use the car when you want to
(true story that took place in the last town I lived in before I moved to England).

The Deathwish concept is that no one is harmed,
until or unless he becomes violent,
such that counterviolence is required for the victim to save himself.

Quote:

I really do maintain that you have an unrealistically optimistic and inflated view
of the abstract reasoning ability of most children.
They generalize inappropriately ALL THE TIME and they are programmed
to a certain extent to model what they see.

I think it depends on the individual person,
of any age.

Quote:

And they CAN be traumatised by violence they are exposed to
or watch- precisely because they often are not able to intellectualize it.

I was traumatized seeing Linda Blair 's head turn around
beyond the normal range of motion, when I was well into adulthood;
again free speech, in art.
I don 't approve of censorship.

It is unAmerican.

Quote:

But perhaps even more troubling
is the fact that they can be desensitized to it.

Explain ?
Exactly what harm results from being desensitized ?

Quote:

And I think films like this contribute to the chronic and continuing
cheapening of and desensitization toward others that afflicts our society
and maybe more than any other factor, contributes to criminal behavior.

Everyone has to make his own choices of what entertainment
he will watch; e.g., I find no merit in watching competive athletics; boring.

David

Quote:

aidan wrote:

Hi David - Happy New Year!

Happy New Year, Rebecca !

Quote:

Quote:

I understand the sentiment behind your theory-
that you'd like the good people to be kept safe from the bad people at any cost.

Well, there is not much cost;
just defending oneself from violent attack, if it presents itself.

Well yeah, in the movie there's no cost...just the cost of a bullet, right? And I guess if we keep this in that realm, (of fantasy) there's nothing much to worry about, except for the effects that this particular picture of adult behavior models for children who are exposed to it.

Quote:

Quote:

But I think that if you really stop to think about it,
you'd have to agree that it might adversely affect our society in ways we
couldn't even begin to imagine if we were to have ordinary people
transform themselves into remorseless killing machines- even if they only
confined themselves to killing criminals.

Even if it DID,
the victims of the attacks still have the inalienable right to defend themselves
from the criminals who r attacking them.

Yes, I agree totally with that. If someone attacks me or someone I'm with, I should and instinctively WOULD strike back and try to save myself, and that other person.
But the scenarios you describe in this movie, if not exactly entrapment, do indicate a state of mind in which there seems to be absolute RELISH attached to killing another person.
In a court of law - wouldn't this guy be deemed to be (at the very least) of diminshed capacity? Wouldn't that indicate he's not all there or in other words, not totally emotionally healthy. And if he's acting under diminished capacity (due to his grief over the violent deaths of his loved ones) is he the sort of role model we should put forth for other citizens to emulate?

Quote:

Quote:

I think it's easy to get so immersed in your work and/or career choice
(which in your case has been the law/legal system) to such an extent that
you see the harm criminal behavior visits on society everyday and you
just want it to be eradicated.

Yes, but regardless of that:
see above ( i.e., the rights of the individual are supreme, qua self defense ).

No, but you CAN"T disregard that. I was interested to read that you'd never had violence thrust upon you to the extent that you felt the need to take vengeance. So given that, I figured it must be something else that drives this need of yours to see the bad guys pay.
And I've concluded that it's your career David...take it from me...I know because I know how easy it is to get a skewed view when you are working with one sort of person day in and day out.

Because I'll admit- I have an oppositely skewed view of the exact same people we're discussing. Because I work with people who have criminal tendencies and they're nice to ME everyday and they would never hurt ME- I think that's how all criminals must be - misunderstood and good people underneath it all...who'll be nice to anyone who gives them a chance and is nice to them...well that's probably not true either, and I constantly have to remind myself of that and act more carefully accordingly.

Quote:

But there's a way to go about things.
And Charles Bronson's character is most likely continuing the destruction of his own soul
that the criminals who killed his wife and daughter started-
although hollywood has made it seem that he's highly satisfied with himself
and his results outwardly.

I saw no evidence of soul destruction in the movie.

That's because it's a movie...believe me, in the scenes they cut, he's going home every night and crying.

Quote:

( I don 't believe I 've seen soul destruction in any movie that I recall. )[/b]

Sure you have - you just didn't know that's what it was called...
Maybe I just made it up - but I think it's a very evocative phrase...

Quote:

Quote:

Would the burgeoning criminal who was born into poverty
and abuse get to kill his or her abuser?

Not in the Bronson scheme of things,
( unless the abuser becomes violent ).

Isn't abuse, by definition, violent?
Can't emotional or verbal abuse be just as "soul destroying" as physical or sexual abuse?

Quote:

Quote:

Or would people who society deemed innocent and worthy

WHO ?

Oh, you know, like Charles Bronson's perfect wife and daughter in this film.

Quote:

quote]have to die before anyone received carte blanche to kill that particular murderer
before he or she moved on to mercilessly cleaning the streets of "lowlifes"?

I don t understand the question.

Quote:

I agree with Edgar and Endy that children shouldn't watch these films.

If I were a child,
I 'd consider a violation of my rights,
the same as u wud if someone did that to u now.

Quote:

They send a dangerous message:
if people cross you - get rid of them- blow them away.

That is what free speech is all about.
Sometimes it is controversial.
No one has to listen.

Quote:

I really do maintain that you have an unrealistically optimistic and inflated view
of the abstract reasoning ability of most children.
They generalize inappropriately ALL THE TIME and they are programmed
to a certain extent to model what they see.

I think it depends on the individual person,
of any age.

Quote:

And they CAN be traumatised by violence they are exposed to
or watch- precisely because they often are not able to intellectualize it.

I was traumatized seeing Linda Blair 's head turn around
beyond the normal range of motion, when I was well into adulthood;
again free speech, in art.
I don 't approve of censorship.

It is unAmerican.

Quote:

But perhaps even more troubling
is the fact that they can be desensitized to it.

Explain ?
Exactly what harm results from being desensitized ?

Quote:

And I think films like this contribute to the chronic and continuing
cheapening of and desensitization toward others that afflicts our society
and maybe more than any other factor, contributes to criminal behavior.

Everyone has to make his own choices of what entertainment
he will watch; e.g., I find no merit in watching competive athletics; boring.

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Quote:

aidan wrote:

Hi David - Happy New Year!

Happy New Year, Rebecca !

Quote:

Quote:

I understand the sentiment behind your theory-
that you'd like the good people to be kept safe from the bad people at any cost.

Well, there is not much cost;
just defending oneself from violent attack, if it presents itself.

Well yeah, in the movie there's no cost...just the cost of a bullet, right? And I guess if we keep this in that realm, (of fantasy) there's nothing much to worry about, except for the effects that this particular picture of adult behavior models for children who are exposed to it.

Quote:

Quote:

But I think that if you really stop to think about it,
you'd have to agree that it might adversely affect our society in ways we
couldn't even begin to imagine if we were to have ordinary people
transform themselves into remorseless killing machines- even if they only
confined themselves to killing criminals.

Even if it DID,
the victims of the attacks still have the inalienable right to defend themselves
from the criminals who r attacking them.

Yes, I agree totally with that. If someone attacks me or someone I'm with, I should and instinctively WOULD strike back and try to save myself, and that other person.
But the scenarios you describe in this movie, if not exactly entrapment, do indicate a state of mind in which there seems to be absolute RELISH attached to killing another person.
In a court of law - wouldn't this guy be deemed to be (at the very least) of diminshed capacity? Wouldn't that indicate he's not all there or in other words, not totally emotionally healthy. And if he's acting under diminished capacity (due to his grief over the violent deaths of his loved ones) is he the sort of role model we should put forth for other citizens to emulate?

Quote:

Quote:

I think it's easy to get so immersed in your work and/or career choice
(which in your case has been the law/legal system) to such an extent that
you see the harm criminal behavior visits on society everyday and you
just want it to be eradicated.

Yes, but regardless of that:
see above ( i.e., the rights of the individual are supreme, qua self defense ).

No, but you CAN"T disregard that. I was interested to read that you'd never had violence thrust upon you to the extent that you felt the need to take vengeance. So given that, I figured it must be something else that drives this need of yours to see the bad guys pay.
And I've concluded that it's your career David...take it from me...I know because I know how easy it is to get a skewed view when you are working with one sort of person day in and day out.

Because I'll admit- I have an oppositely skewed view of the exact same people we're discussing. Because I work with people who have criminal tendencies and they're nice to ME everyday and they would never hurt ME- I think that's how all criminals must be - misunderstood and good people underneath it all...who'll be nice to anyone who gives them a chance and is nice to them...well that's probably not true either, and I constantly have to remind myself of that and act more carefully accordingly.

Quote:

But there's a way to go about things.
And Charles Bronson's character is most likely continuing the destruction of his own soul
that the criminals who killed his wife and daughter started-
although hollywood has made it seem that he's highly satisfied with himself
and his results outwardly.

I saw no evidence of soul destruction in the movie.

That's because it's a movie...believe me, in the scenes they cut, he's going home every night and crying.

Quote:

( I don 't believe I 've seen soul destruction in any movie that I recall. )[/b]

Sure you have - you just didn't know that's what it was called...
Maybe I just made it up - but I think it's a very evocative phrase...

Quote:

Quote:

Would the burgeoning criminal who was born into poverty
and abuse get to kill his or her abuser?

Not in the Bronson scheme of things,
( unless the abuser becomes violent ).

Isn't abuse, by definition, violent?
Can't emotional or verbal abuse be just as "soul destroying" as physical or sexual abuse?

Quote:

Quote:

Or would people who society deemed innocent and worthy

WHO ?

Oh, you know, like Charles Bronson's perfect wife and daughter in this film.

Quote:

quote]have to die before anyone received carte blanche to kill that particular murderer
before he or she moved on to mercilessly cleaning the streets of "lowlifes"?

I don t understand the question.

Would someone have to have their loved ones actually murdered before they could receive license to start cleaning the streets. How about if your loved one was just mugged? Would that be a good enough excuse to express your killing rage?

Quote:

Quote:

I agree with Edgar and Endy that children shouldn't watch these films.

If I were a child,
I 'd consider a violation of my rights,
the same as u wud if someone did that to u now.

Think of it outside the parameters of constitutional rights. Think of it in terms of a child's right (or need) to feel safe in the world...to live a certain amount of years without worrying about being attacked or murdered...think of it as a child's right to lay in bed at night and sleep and dream about the seven dwarves instead of getting raped and murdered and/or Charles Bronson in Deathwish....

Quote:

Quote:

They send a dangerous message:
if people cross you - get rid of them- blow them away.

That is what free speech is all about.
Sometimes it is controversial.
No one has to listen.

But children DO listen to what adults say...and they watch what adults do. That's what they're told to do.

Quote:

Quote:

I really do maintain that you have an unrealistically optimistic and inflated view
of the abstract reasoning ability of most children.
They generalize inappropriately ALL THE TIME and they are programmed
to a certain extent to model what they see.

I think it depends on the individual person,
of any age.

Yes, to some extent. But you can never be sure which individual child of which age will be traumatized, or influenced in such a negative way that they act out what they see.

Quote:

Quote:

And they CAN be traumatised by violence they are exposed to
or watch- precisely because they often are not able to intellectualize it.

I was traumatized seeing Linda Blair 's head turn around
beyond the normal range of motion, when I was well into adulthood;
again free speech, in art.
I don 't approve of censorship.

It's not censorship per se...it's allowing them to live free of all that crap until they have the tools to deal with it. It's doing them a favor- it's like not asking them to pay the bills until they're old enough to support themselves.

Quote:

It is unAmerican.

Yes, apparently it is. Because America has come to stand for violence (throughout the world).

Quote:

Quote:

But perhaps even more troubling
is the fact that they can be desensitized to it.

Explain ?
Exactly what harm results from being desensitized ?

Because when one is desensitized to the negative effects of a stimulus, they no longer see or feel any reason not to visit that stimulus on another person.

Quote:

Quote:

And I think films like this contribute to the chronic and continuing
cheapening of and desensitization toward others that afflicts our society
and maybe more than any other factor, contributes to criminal behavior.

Everyone has to make his own choices of what entertainment
he will watch; e.g., I find no merit in watching competive athletics; boring.

Yes, exactly. And I don't enjoy watching people get hurt or killed- I'd rather watch baseball.

Hey, here's something interesting...I saw a trailer the other night for a movie about a serial killer here in NY state (Poughkeepsie). Anyway, this guy made tapes of his killings. And now they've made some sort of reenactment of his killings and are calling it a movie.
That offended me - that these poor women who were killed by this guy will have their deaths reenacted to be watched by millions of people. I just feel like that's a horrible invasion of something that should stay private...it's sickening to me that a studio is profiting off the deaths of these women.
If I were a family member of one of them - I'd take my revenge on that studio...

Hope you are well David - Rebecca

David[/b]

David's filosofy in action:

Monday news story: Houston. Stop the presses. Three men broke into a home and proceeded to tie up the family. But, the husband, true to David's filosfy of shoot the bastards, grabbed a gun. In the tradition of Death Wish and gun nuttism everywhere, he made his move. And was promptly shot to death. Moral: Even Palladin had bad days.