The KKK are right

Intrepid wrote:

God does not kill.

Yeah... Just don't spill your seed.

T
K
O

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Hi Arella

Quote:

My answers aren't going to change no matter how many times you ask the same question or how you rephrase it. If you don't accept it then you don't accept it.

My personal beliefs are not in the God of the bible, though the God of the New Testament isn't all that bad. From a personal point of view, I seek consistency in my own beliefs, and that is perhaps the major reason I ask questions, and rephrase them when there doesn't appear to be any consistencyI am seeking consistency.

In regards to your answers - I accept they are what you believe. From a personal view point, they don't appear principally consistent. If they don't appear principally consistent, should I not question your answers?

My questions :

Quote:

-Is this possible if he goes around murdering thousands to millions of babies? And does a loving God do so?

-Is it possible to love a God that tells you to do around murdering babies, instead of carrying out the dirtywork himself? Knowing the traumatic effects doing so has on humans, would a loving God tell you to do so?

-Is it possible to love a God who wipes out a nation of people so that his favoured ones can live there instead? And does a loving God do so?

can be answered in a number of different ways. They can be by answered :
-by you for yourself, or
-by you for others (by putting yourself in their shoes) who view the events, or
-by you for those who experienced the events (by imagining yourself in their shoes)

That said, you have never said "A loving God can kill babies" - what you have said is "he needs no justification, he can do what he wants", and "we can't comprehend God", so your answers appear rather evasive, and appear to ignore human conscience (which makes the answer, to my way of thinking, inconsistent). As another example, you refused to answer the ?'would you kill a baby at Gods command' question for quite a while - actually, you've never answered it directly - only by implication.

By asking rephrased questions, I am seeking clarification from you of your beliefs, and how you see God as a consistent, inconsistent, good, bad, or incomprehensible God, worthy of love.

In relation to the justification issue, I left out a little word that is rather important :

He tells us that he is a loving God, yet what we see of certain events, we can't understand as love - that is why he needs to justify it to us - because he wants us to think of him as a loving God.

He tells us to love him - that is why he needs to justify certain events to us - because from a human point of view it's almost impossible to love someone who among many nice things, murders babies for a living...and as he's telling us, as humans, to love him, it must be from a human point of view that we love him.

As a matter of note - he never once told us to suspend reason, nor our conscience. He never told us not to question, nor to not try and understand.

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My personal belief is that the lack of true attempt to understand, and/or the certainty in the truth of ones beliefs have lead to most, if not all, of the 'evil' human moments/times in this world.

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Vikkor,

My answer is God's ways are above man's ways. Do I fully understand it? No. But I know that God is just and He has a reason for it. I don't question God;s reasons for what He does. He doesn't owe me an explanation for anything.

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Quote:

My answer is God's ways are above man's ways.

Arella, I would ask on what grounds, and what reasoning do you make this claim

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Do I fully understand it? No.

but this appears to say you don't have a comprehensible reason for believing so.

From my perspective, an answer without understanding is not an answer - it is just words. Those words have no meaning, because there is no understanding.

You appear to hope they have meaning, and you have faith they have meaningyet you have no idea what that meaning isand so they have no meaning still, because there is no understanding.

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But I know that God is just

you just can't explain how, so the same goes for the above

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and He has a reason for it

you just don't know the reason for it, so the same goes for the above

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I don't question God;s reasons for what He does

In some ways this is rather obvious, in other ways - perhaps..

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He doesn't owe me an explanation for anything.

He tells you to love him, or die (and depending on your beliefs, suffer eternal torment). He tells you he is a loving God, yet does things you can't explain as love.

If he had no claim on you, then I would say you were quite right that he didn't owe you an explanation, yet he lays claim to your love, and states to you that he is a loving being, while in certain cases doing the opposite.

If you as a Christian cannot understand how Gods actions haven't been evil, how can you expect any other person to believe that God hasn't done evil, how can you expect any other person to think he is not contradictory, and how can you expect any other person to love him and the evil he has apparently done?

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vikorr wrote:

Hi Neologist

Quote:
What a lot of people fail to realize is one huge consequence of the rebellion in Eden has been the temporary delegation of the affairs of this world to the rebel.

Perhaps you will need to expand on how this resulted in the matters being discussed.

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Recall that Jesus, when tempted by this rebel with all the kingdoms of this world, did not deny that the rebel had the right to offer them. (Matthew 4:9)

In John 14:30, he identified this one as the "ruler of this world."

I know the bible saysyet if Satan is the ruler of this world, how come God kept acting like it was his, destroying stuff here and there (and occasionally everything), ordering people around, setting up laws - and all in someone elses kingdom? Usually that's called any of : invasion, subversion, overthrowing the ruler, dethroning, etc.. . .

God chose a nation of people for reasons, not the least of which was to point the way to the messiah.

His dealings with the various nations were to serve as lessons for us.

More to it, of course.

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And what controversial lessons they were.

Thanks for the reply.

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Vikor,

Just what part of He is God don't you get?

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"He is God" is a simple statement, and from it you have asked a question without context, or at least, I can't place the context of it.

You will need to put context to it - as it stands I have no idea what you are asking.

In relation to what specific or general statement of mine is the question asked?

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All of them. He is God. He makes the rules. He has reasons for what He does whether we agree with them, like them, understand them, etc.

I really get the impression you have no clue as to what God means.

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vikorr wrote:

And what controversial lessons they were.

Thanks for the reply.

Controversial to those who are really smart. Rolling Eyes

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Quote:

All of them. He is God. He makes the rules. He has reasons for what He does whether we agree with them, like them, understand them, etc.

It appears you have not understood that I have no debate with this. There is a difference between accepting that God exists, makes the rules, does what he does and believing that same God is the God described in the bible.

Quote:

I really get the impression you have no clue as to what God means.

This I do have an issue with - it is an amazing statement coming from someone who admits that :

-she won't ask question God's reasons and principles, meaning she has no true intention of trying to understand God, his reasons, his principles, his love

So you :
-have no true concept of how God's justice works, and no interest in it (or you would question)
-have no true concept how God's love works, and no interest in it (again - would question)
-have no true idea of what God's reasons are, and no interest in it

In other words - no understanding, and no intention of attempting to understand (and without understanding, there is no true meaning)

And then you say that it is me that has the problem with understanding the meaning of God?

By the way, I'll happily admit I have no understanding of the meaning of God, but I'm always questioning how it is he, and we work. I have no problem not knowing, but everything I do know about God is consistent. Whether it's accurate or not, is another matter entirely.

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Quote:

Controversial to those who are really smart.

Neo, why would intelligence make a difference?

If the 'lessons' weren't controversial, then there'd be no debate over the principles of them.

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Just referring to my post made to xingu:

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3088435#3088435

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With a tie in for me through your repitition of my use of the word 'controversial', rather clever.

Controversy needs no true intelligence, just differing points of view. Articulating those differing points of view needs some intelligence. And understanding them, a bit more again.

Differing points of view come from many sources, including differing enironment, education, and degree of curiosity and it's accompanying asking asking of questions.

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Vikor,

I understand God pretty well. There will always be things about Him I will never understand though. Those things I just accept the fact that He is God and if He did it or said it that's good enough for me.

Whether you agree with it, understand it, etc., doesn't matter.

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Arella wrote:

But, it doesn't matter what we like or not. God had His reasons for it.

Again you Christians miss the point. You say your God can do anything it chooses. If God is good then God killing babies must be good. His behavior now sets an example for us.

If this God establishes a set of rules for us to live by, a set to harsh for God itself to live by, than what we have here is a false God, a hypocrite. How can one say we are evil when the perfect goodness orders us to do evil? How can God be seen as a God of all mankind when he makes a pact with a small tribe, shows favoritism to them and kills those competing with them? This is not a God of all mankind, a God that loves all mankind. It's a tribal God, created by the tribe, for the tribe and by circumstance, elevated to a position Christians imagine to be the God of all mankind.

Giving excuses for God's psychopathic behavior with such arguments that it is God and it can do whatever it chooses is a cheap cop-out by those who can't explain the evil nature of the God they want to see as good, perfect, just and humane.

The excuse that God may do whatever it chooses is a Christians way of seeing the evilness in their God, denying its existences and spinning it off. That excuse is unacceptable because if Christians see god as perfect they can, with justification, use its behavior as an example for their own. If God kills Christians can kill and it would be no different than saying God loves so Christians should love. You can't have it one way and not the other. Either none of God's behavior should be an example for us or all of it should be. The expressions of 'God may do whatever it chooses' or 'God works in mysterious ways' is not an excuse for God's evil behavior.

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Xingu
Not to tell you something you probably already knowI don't want to use the word religion as there are too many connotations involved in that word - so the mythological view would be: God, by definition, is amoral (note: NOT immoral) he is above good and evil. We see this in the eastern religions where the god of life in one context is the god of death in another.
In the great western religious traditions we have a moralistic framework. God is all good the devil all bad. This is where the cognitive dissonance is created. How do you compute an all loving God that tells you to go to the city of your enemy and steal and rape what you do not destroy? As you can see it takes some cognitive/moralist gymnastics that is hard to defend, at least logically, to non-believers. It is also how you can ignore whenever it suites you:
?'Judge ye not least ye be judged'
?'Thou shall not kill' unless they be infidels, etc.

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Intrepid wrote:

xingu wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Where did I suggest that you only read part of the bible. You would have to read the whole thing in order to understand what I was referring to. Obviously, you have not.

Did I mention you by name or do you see only what you choose to see?

You said it in a reply to my post. I guess you are not as smart as Neo gives you credit for. Perhaps you could tell us who you were replying or referring to. Thank you.

I said;

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One last thing. Whenever I discuss religion with Christians invariably one of them will say "Read the whole Bible". Now I have one suggesting that I read only part of the Bible.

Notice I said 'one of them will say'. Since you are not the only Christian on this site that plainly means one of the many Christians that makes comments. I have been told by more than one Christian in the past to 'read the whole Bible.' Whenever they get to the point they can't make anymore excuses for God's behavior they post this one simple statement.

The next sentence was in reference to you in that you suggested in your comments that maybe the NT was of greater importance than the OT. This may have been a misinterpretation on my part as you said;

Quote:

and you go back to the same old stuff when someone talks about the the New Testament and how it brought about change and is the basis for Christianity.

The 'old stuff' I bring up are examples of God's evil nature found in the OT. Unfortunately the same God in the NT is just as evil as the one in the OT. It is still rule by fear. Rule by fear is not an act of love.

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xingu wrote:

Arella wrote:
But, it doesn't matter what we like or not. God had His reasons for it.

Again you Christians miss the point. You say your God can do anything it chooses. If God is good then God killing babies must be good. His behavior now sets an example for us. . . .
etc. . . .
more. . .

When Adam and Eve sinned, they, in effect, sentenced the entire human race to death.

". . . through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12)

So does it really matter how and when people die?

Especially since all who have died will have another chance at life without the sentence of Adam hanging over their heads.

"Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment." (John 5:28,29)

"But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." (Psalm 37:11)

I don't know about you, but the prospect of living, working, and playing with my family endlessly on earth has a lot more appeal than floating around in heaven or passing into the NDE light at the end of the tunnel.

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