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Get yer polls, bets, numbers & pretty graphs! Elections 2008

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 05:33 pm
Matthew Yglesias on Obama's challenge in Pennsylvania:

Quote:
Pennsylvania Demographics

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/pademographics.png

My sense of things had been that, demographically speaking, Pennsylvania was like Ohio but I thought I might look up the actual census data to see what we can see. Basically, Pennsylvania is like Ohio. The differences -- more old people, fewer black people, more Hispanics -- mostly cut in Clinton's favor, with only the larger number of college graduates helping Obama. The bad news for Obama, basically, is that he needs to fight a big, protracted battle in a state that's very demographically unfavorable to him.

He adds a very thin silver lining:

Quote:
The good news for Obama is that given how Clinton-friendly the state and, and the fact that Clinton can't overtake him in the delegate lead anyway, if he does manage to beat her here she'll have no excuses left to stay in the race.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 05:34 pm
Oh, bugger. Why do my prettiest graphs always end up at the bottom of the page? Pretty graphs on how the polls did in Ohio and Texas at the bottom of the last page... :wink:
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 05:34 pm
Also from Yglesias, this interesting number:

Quote:
2,833,000 Texans voted for John Kerry in the 2004 general election, but 2,857,000 people voted in last night's Democratic primary.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 05:37 pm
I saw them! Pretty and informative too! Remain impressed with SUSA.
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 05:56 pm
We all saw them, Nimh. It matters not where they are on the page.

With regards to the bar graph above on the demographics of PA and OH, I wonder if they are arout equal in being rust-belt states. How do the median incomes compare. And how do the number of younger residents (say under 30) compare.

Six long weeks to kill before PA. Only WY amd MS to fuss about.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 06:18 pm
Plus the Virgin Islands April 5th!

(Is it totally pitiful that I have all remaining primaries marked on my calendar? Probably. Oh well.)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 06:43 pm
Heh Smile
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 06:45 pm
Quote:
Exit Polls Reveal Obama's Weaknesses

March 05, 2008; 3:45 AM

Barack Obama has rested his campaign partly on the claim that he is the more electable of the Democratic presidential candidates, but the result of the March 4 primaries, as outlined in the initial exit polls, show that he could have as much trouble as Hillary Clinton in the fall.

If you look at the exit polls for Ohio, and to some extent, Texas and Rhode Island, they show the same pattern that occurred in the February 5 contests, but that was submerged in Obama's intervening victories. Hillary Clinton does better or much better than him among women, whites (particularly those who make less than $50,000 a year), Latinos, and older voters. He does better than her among the young, among African Americans, and among upscale voters.

The question for the fall is whether there are Clinton voters who won't vote for Obama and Obama voters who won't vote for Clinton. The exit polls don't really answer this question. The closest they get is to ask respondents whether they would be "satisfied" or "dissatisfied" if Clinton or Obama were the eventual nominee. The results tonight do not look good for Obama. In Wisconsin, for instance, only 17 percent of Democratic primary voters said they would be dissatisfied if Obama were the nominee. In Ohio, Rhode Island, and Texas, 30 percent or more of voters said they would be "dissatisfied" if he were the nominee. That means that a sizable percentage of voters who backed Hillary Clinton may not back Obama in the fall. But Clinton's percentages were not that much better. They were in the high twenties.

Obama has to worry about the Reagan or Bush Democrats, white working class voters who used to be Democrats, but often back Republican presidential candidates. Bill Clinton won many of these voters back; but Al Gore lost them in 2000 and John Kerry lost them in 2004. Many of these voters are not participating in the Democratic or Republicans primaries--and they'll make the difference in November in states like Ohio and Missouri. But of the voters that are participating, Clinton did much better among them, winning over 60 percent of them in Ohio.

Could Obama win these voters in the fall? There is no precise way to tell from the polls, but one rough measure is to look at how racial factors affect voters. Many white working class voters abandoned the Democrats in the '80s because of the complex of issues that surround race--including crime, education, and welfare. Obama could have a problem among these voters because he is an African American.

The exit polls ask voters whether the "race of the candidates" was "important" in deciding their vote. If one looks at the percentage of Clinton (and earlier Edwards) voters who said it was "important," that is a fair estimate of the overall percentage of primary voters who were not inclined to vote for Obama because he was black. In Texas and California, this number is complicated by presence of Latino voters, some of whom might also be less inclined to vote for a black candidate.

In some February 5 states, the overall percentage of white (or Latino) primary voters who voted for white candidates partly because of race was pretty high. It was 9.5 percent, for instance, in New Jersey. In the general election, that percentage is likely to double; and some of these additional voters will be white working class or Latino voters that a Democratic candidate needs to win. In Wisconsin, the number was very low--only 6 percent. But in Ohio, a crucial swing state, it was 11.4 percent. That's a real danger sign for Obama in a state where elections can be decided by one or two percentage points.

In past elections, Clinton has done poorly among white men--a group that might be less inclined to vote for her because of her gender--but in Ohio, she got a respectable 55 percent of this vote, although that might be a reflection of these voters' greater discomfort with Obama. Clinton has also done less well among moderate and independent voters. Obama won independents in Ohio by 54 to 46 percent--nothing like his two-to-one margins in other states.

But Clinton bested Obama among moderate voters by 53 to 46 percent in Ohio, while Obama edged her among liberal voters by 50 to 49 percent. The same pattern occurred in Rhode Island, where Clinton won moderates by 55 to 44 percent and lost liberal voters to Obama by 51 to 48 percent. That's probably not a good sign for Obama, whose strength lay in his appeal to the political center. All in all, the exit polls show that in these elections--in contrast to those in Maryland, Virginia, or Wisconsin--Obama's weakness as a potential candidate in November may be beginning to surface. In so far as Clinton's problems are already apparent, that doesn't bode well for the Democrats, particularly as the nominating struggle continues for another month.

--John B. Judis
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 06:54 pm
John Judis wrote:
In Wisconsin, for instance, only 17 percent of Democratic primary voters said they would be dissatisfied if Obama were the nominee. In Ohio, Rhode Island, and Texas, 30 percent or more of voters said they would be "dissatisfied" if he were the nominee. That means that a sizable percentage of voters who backed Hillary Clinton may not back Obama in the fall. But Clinton's percentages were not that much better. They were in the high twenties.


This may be a function of location -- maybe these differences would have been there no matter what. But this is exactly my fear -- that a long, drawn-out, acrimonious Democratic primary will just divide and polarize the Democrats and leave the eventual nominee weaker at the end of it.

What we know is that the earlier trends of Hillary and Obama supporters being satisfied with either -- just choosing between two options -- seems to be changing. Now that Hillary's kitchen-sink approach has been ratified, I think that trend will continue. (I do think that the KIND of campaigning has an impact, not only the fact of an ongoing race.)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 07:26 pm
Yeah. That sounds reasonable (and depressing). I should make a table some time, seeing how the number of those saying they'd be dissatisfied if the other candidate becomes the nominee has developed over time from primary to primary. (I share your impression, but it would be good to do a systematic comparison.)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 07:28 pm
Factoid: the Texas/Ohio/Rhode Island primaries mean that

Quote:
Clinton has, for the first time, won a larger share of pledged delegates on an election day than has Barack Obama.

According to a commenter somewhere. That true? I remember that in NV, he got more delegates even as she got the larger vote... and in NH they got an equal number of delegates, right? So I guess it's true.. that's a trippy fact to consider, and relativates the bad news a little.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 07:31 pm
nimh wrote:
Factoid: the Texas/Ohio/Rhode Island primaries mean that

Quote:
Clinton has, for the first time, won a larger share of pledged delegates on an election day than has Barack Obama.

According to a commenter somewhere. That true? I remember that in NV, he got more delegates even as she got the larger vote... and in NH they got an equal number of delegates, right? So I guess it's true.. that's a trippy fact to consider, and relativates the bad news a little.


It's true.

Obama can still hang his hat on the fact that at no point has Clinton been winning the delegate count.

I read the TPM article about Obama troops relying on math too much; and there is merit to this. But, momentum is fleeting; news stories and cycles come and go; the big gains that people get from wins go away.

The math STAYS. Two weeks from now, Hillary's wins in TX and OH will be in the past. The Obama lead will remain in the present. I'd rather be with the math.

Cycloptichorn
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 08:02 pm
Considering the comparatively minimal number of delegates the Clinton campaign has caught up on Obama with yesterday, it seems odd that they should repeat the mistake of earlier primaries now in WY and MS:

Quote:
Both campaigns have staff on the ground in Wyoming and Mississippi, but the Clinton campaign has said the demographic makeup of these two states might help Sen. Obama. Wyoming has a caucus, a type of vote that has favored Sen. Obama's strong grass-roots operation, and Sen. Obama has already sent out two mailers to Democratic voters and has opened four offices.

Rather than pouring limited resources into Wyoming and Mississippi, the Clinton campaign has zeroed in on building its organization in Pennsylvania, where the large population of working-class and elderly white voters could play to Sen. Clinton's strengths.


It's still 45 pledged delegates at stake in MS and WY together - a comfortable Obama win could well undo Clinton's delegate gains now.

Then again, maybe the Hillary campaign is in fact investing in the two states, under-the-radar, and are just playing it like they're skipping them - they've sure been good at the expectations game so far.

More from that (WSJ) article:

Quote:
Sen. Obama began running radio and television ads on Friday in Mississippi, where he has won the endorsement of former Gov. Ray Mabus. Sen. Clinton has been endorsed in Wyoming by former Gov. Mike Sullivan.

But Sen. Clinton may have some fences to mend in Mississippi. While campaigning in Iowa, she singled out both states for being the only ones not to elect a woman to Congress or as governor, adding that she would have expected that of Mississippi but not of Iowa. The New York senator later apologized for the comments. Another advantage for Sen. Obama: Mississippi's electorate is nearly 34% African-American.


And this is Obama's line on the continuing campaign:

Quote:
Party leaders have expressed worries for months that the party might not decide on a candidate until the August nominating convention, leaving likely Republican nominee John McCain with plenty of time to unite his party while the Democrats engage in a battle for delegates and superdelegates. Sen. Obama rejected that idea yesterday. "It's good preparation," he said. "It's like training camp if I end up being the nominee. "
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 08:08 pm
It also gives him more cover to settle on his campaign talking points against McCain while throwing a few volleys at Clinton now and then by lumping the two together.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 08:39 pm
3 or 4 super-d's declared for Obama today. That basically cuts the lead Hillary gained from yesterday in 1/3 or 1/2, depending on how the math works out in the end.

That sort of hurts my head to think about, actually. Man, this system is f'ed up.

Cycloptichorn
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 08:44 pm
He's building up quite a list of endorsements on all levels..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Barack_Obama_presidential_campaign_endorsements
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 08:51 pm
One of my employees is Andy. I have mentioned him before. He is about 30, the singer in what used to be a Goth band but now called something different. Industrial or something. He barely finished high school but is one of the street smartest people I have ever met. He is socially liberal but fiscally amazingly conservative.
So we were talking in the store today, several of us, and he made a suggestion:
Let McCain win the White House in 2008. Let him try to clean up the mess in Iraq for 4 years. Let McCain try to straighten out the economy. McCain is 71 years old.
Obama, Clinton, Edwards could keep their powder dry until 2012, knowing that Congress will be controlled by Dems.
It was an interesting take on things from Andy, who will probably end up voting for McCain because Andy, long before he dyed his hair whatever color it is now, was a redneck taught to believe that you got what you worked for and nothing more.

Please don't bother posting your objections to his opinions here. I just thought it was an interesting take on things.

(ps: If yall will pay my expenses for, say, 10 days, I will cover the primary in the Virgin Islands)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 08:56 pm
realjohnboy wrote:
We all saw them, Nimh. It matters not where they are on the page.

With regards to the bar graph above on the demographics of PA and OH, I wonder if they are arout equal in being rust-belt states. How do the median incomes compare. And how do the number of younger residents (say under 30) compare.


The US Census Bureau has a cool feature: Quick Stats on every state, and within every state, the counties and cities. All based on the 2000 census.

Some quick highlights:

  • Some states are marked by high mobility, many new residents, and the socially mobile population those things usually indicate. Pennsylvania is not one. 63.5% of residents lived in the same house in 1995 and 2000 (national average: 54.1%; Ohio: 57.5%).

  • Homeownership rate was high (71.3% against 66.2% nationally and 69.1% in Ohio), but the median value of owner-occupied housing units was low (just $97,000, compared to a national average of $119,600, and $103,700 in Ohio).

  • Indicators on income suggest a state that's more average than I'd expected (I had a very "Rust Belt" image and thought average income would be below-average). That also makes it very similar to Ohio, though. E.g.:

    - Median household income in 2004 was $43,714, almost the same as nationally ($44,334) and in Ohio ($43,371).

    - Per capita money income in 1999 was $20,880 - barely lower than in Ohio ($21,003) or the national average (vs. $21,587).

    - In 2004, 11.2% of Pennsylvanians were below poverty level, against 12.7% nationally and 11.7% in Ohio.

    - People seem to have about as much to spend as on average in America: Retail sales per capita in 2002 were $10,603, almost exactly the same as the national average ($10,615) and a little more than in Ohio ($10,497).

  • There is one dissenting indicator though, which better confirms to the "Rust Belt" image. In America as a whole, private nonfarm employment was up 2.0% in 2000-2005. In Pennsylvania, it was down 0.1%.

    So, to apply a broad brush - at the moment, PA is pretty much still the ultimate average US state (more so than I'd expected) - but it is heading down while America as a whole is heading up, hence the much-described sense of fear.

    However, apparently it's not anywhere as bleak in PA as in OH, which should be good news for Obama (who tends to do better among voters who feel confident about their economic position and/or future than among those who are insecure/fearful). In Ohio, private nonfarm employment in 2000-2005 was down a whopping 4.8%.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 08:59 pm
realjohnboy wrote:
One of my employees is Andy. I have mentioned him before. He is about 30, the singer in what used to be a Goth band but now called something different. Industrial or something.

Did he still tour in Eastern Europe? I remember that they were planning to, looking into it? (Sorry, bad memory...)
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Mar, 2008 09:21 pm
realjohnboy wrote:

So we were talking in the store today, several of us, and he made a suggestion:
Let McCain win the White House in 2008. Let him try to clean up the mess in Iraq for 4 years.


I've said the exact same thing several times in the last year. The Republicans should have to clean up their own fiscal mess and be accountable for it.

The only problem with that is it would also mean many more dead people in the Middle East and would not be worth the vindication.
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