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Get yer polls, bets, numbers & pretty graphs! Elections 2008

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 06:03 pm
nimh wrote:
Well, the thing is - like, I know I've used "downscale" once or twice lately - probably picked it up from the media talk. But how do you call lower-educated / lower-income voters? I'd call them "working class", but that doesnt seem to fly very well in America... :wink:

Considering Okie's concerns, and the additional point that many low-education, low-income people are not working class because they're unemployed, why not go all the way to "proletariat"? JPB, how would you like that?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 06:12 pm
I recommend the British term... "impertinents".
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 06:16 pm
Thomas wrote:
Considering Okie's concerns, and the additional point that many low-education, low-income people are not working class because they're unemployed, why not go all the way to "proletariat"?

Heh Smile

On the other hand, hey, I've got my university education, and I'm still a prole, so where does that leave us? :wink:
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 08:04 pm
Apparently, Ronald Brownstein has a "fascinating cover story in National Journal" about how the demographic coalition supporting the Democratic Party could be transformed as a result of the current primary race.

I havent read it yet. But TNR's The Plank says this is "the crux of his argument":

Quote:
    From New Hampshire to California, and from Arizona to Wisconsin, exit polls from this year's contests show the Democratic coalition evolving in clear and consistent ways since the 2004 primaries that nominated John Kerry. The party is growing younger, more affluent, more liberal, and more heavily tilted toward women, Latinos, and African-Americans.
Which means:

    This year's changes have accelerated a clear movement away from key elements of the historic New Deal coalition on which Hillary Clinton has based her candidacy.

This, of course, is the exact opposite course of development from what I have long banged on about as where I think the Democratic Party really, really needs to go. The opposite of the Edwards route, so to say.

Now part of this, one could say, is not in Obama's hands - that's just how the chips have fallen down, and it's not like Obama told older, working class white voters not to vote for him. But yeah, envisioning this as the probable future trajectory of the party under Obama, even taking into account how he has been catching up at least partly re the education gap etc, is still one of my major misgivings.

(Not that it matters a whit what my misgivings are, I'm not even American - but I'm just writing what I think, is all.)
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 08:12 pm
There are so many different threads dealing with the primaries in general or one of the candidates (and therefore others as well, since none of them exist in a vacuum) that I'm often not sure where to put general "by the way" stuff, but I think this is where I've put previous musings about my worries that Edwards will endorse Clinton.

Worried again:

Quote:


http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/03/hillary_clintons_disappearing.html

But it's changed since I saw the above a couple of hours ago... now it looks like Hillary will be making a surprise appearance on SNL.

Still, the thought I had was this...

There have in fact been worrisome signs -- Hillary's "poverty tour" is one example -- that there might be an Edwards endorsement in the works. One thing I thought of is that it could be the Clyburn approach -- work hard to keep him neutral, rather than working hard to get his endorsement per se. As in, he may be leaning Obama, and this is all to get him to wait.

Or not.

Another in the "spare thought" category.

(Now I'm worried about the SNL thing though.)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 08:19 pm
Plonking down a link:

http://www.theperfectworld.us/cg/exitpollsum.htm

Check it out. It's basically an Excel worksheet online. It lists the exit poll data on how several categories of voters have split their votes between Obama and Hillary Clinton in the primaries so far (at least the ones for which exit polls are available) - and lists them in chronological order of when the primaries were held.

For each of the following categories, it lists a) the percentage of voters that the group in question made up and b) the number of votes (no percentages alas) for Obama and Clinton, respectively:

white Democrats;
white Independents/Republicans;
white men;
black Democrats;
Hispanic Democrats;
and Democrats, overall (as opposed to Independent/Republican voters in the Democratic primaries).

Including the "total" score for each category, in number of votes and percentages.

Note what is lacking: totals and average percentages for how all Democratic primary voters have voted. So you're left with a page whose main outcome is that Clinton won a majority of 51,68% of the "Total "Democrats" Vote". Up to you to remember that Obama would have a majority in a popular vote roundup that includes the independent voters in the Democratic primaries.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 08:34 pm
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 08:38 pm
Good analysis of the nature of polls in the National Journal from one of the two guys behind pollster.com:

Quote:
MYSTERY POLLSTER
Telling Good Polls From Bad


By Mark Blumenthal
National Journal
Thursday, Feb. 28, 2008

Earlier this week, the managing editor of a prominent newspaper e-mailed me a tough question: "Given that you take great pains to explain the differences between pollsters... why do you announce and link to the results of all pollsters without regard to their methods and transparency?"

While his question pertained to my Web site, Pollster.com, it touches on a broader question that journalists, political professionals and ordinary news junkies grapple with: What is a good poll? How do you tell a good poll from a bad one? That question can be surprisingly difficult to answer, even for a professional pollster.

Unfortunately, when it comes to pre-election surveys that aim to measure the preferences of "likely voters," pollsters rely as much on art as science. No two pollsters agree on the best means of identifying and "screening" likely voters. We disagree about whether we should rely on procedures that define the likely electorate based entirely on the responses to survey questions or whether the pollster should make a priori judgments about the geographic or demographic composition of the likely electorate.

We have heated debates about the best way to draw our samples: Should we begin with a sample of adults who have working phones (achieved by randomly generating the final digits of known telephone number exchanges), or should we sample from registered voter lists that allow for a more accurate identification of actual voters but miss those with non-listed phones?

Pollsters disagree about the merits of automated surveys. Some argue that substituting a recorded voice for a live interviewer compromises random selection, especially when it comes to picking a respondent within a sampled household. Proponents of automated surveys claim, with empirical support, that the automated method makes for a more accurate selection of "likely voters" and vote preferences by better simulating a secret ballot. Unfortunately, these various disagreements limit our ability to provide a neat checklist of dos and don'ts that would easily differentiate "good" polls from the "bad."

What about measurements of accuracy that compare poll results with election outcomes? Unfortunately, these measurements can also be frustrating for those hoping to make decisions about which polls to trust. As my Pollster.com colleague and University of Wisconsin professor Charles Franklin likes to say, this task is more complicated than compiling "a list of good polls that are always close to right and bad polls that are always closer to wrong." Whatever our judgments about the underlying methodology, polls that use "good" methods can be wrong (as compared to election results) and those that use "bad" methods are often right.

The process of measuring accuracy is itself a source of some debate among pollsters. The firm SurveyUSA, a well-known provider of automated polls to local television news broadcasts, has long provided pollster "report cards" that compare the result of the final poll by each organization to the election result. That approach mixes "final" polls conducted in the last 72 hours before voting with some conducted a week to 10 days before an election. Is that a fair approach?

I put that question to Stanford University professor Jon Krosnick. "Most election pollsters," Krosnick says, "believe that surveys done long before Election Day are not intended to predict election outcomes, but they would agree that final pre-election polls should predict election outcomes well." As such, he would only measure accuracy for polls conducted within three days of an election, with at least a handful of surveys for each to avoid accuracy scores that are especially good or bad by "chance alone."

Of course, restricting accuracy measurements this way will leave out many media pollsters that typically conduct longer, in-depth studiesas the basis for analytical stories over the final week of the campaign.

Back to the question posed at the top of this column: One reason Pollster.com does not provide more specific guidance about individual polls is that virtually all polls fall somewhere in the middle of the continuum that runs between completely trustworthy and utterly flawed. Some may be strong on disclosure but weak in other ways. Some excel on accuracy scorecards but provide little beyond horse-race numbers. Not all "likely voter" models are right for all applications. And all of these judgments -- and others like them -- aresubjective. Other pollsters may reach different conclusions.

Our ultimate goal is to provide a variety of tools and empirical measures of accuracy, disclosure, perceived reputation and so on that let poll consumers reach their own conclusions. As the editor's question implies, however, we still have a lot of work to do.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 08:44 pm
Yeek.

Thanks for the info.


More local color... just got this email:

Quote:
I just went down to the Rich Street office here in Columbus to try and get some yard signs. To my surprise, there were a bunch of Hillary supporters across the street with signs saying things similar to "Obama panders Nafta" and such. I asked one of them why they are not out supporting Hillary rather than picketing Obama, and he replied "that's just what we do". He looked pretty defeated, so I told him that at least he could look forward to having a democrat in office, and he agreed. :-)

This just seemed to perfectly illustrate some of the more obvious flaws with the manner in which that campaign has been run. Instead of making phone calls or campaigning FOR Clinton, you got a bunch of sour and sad looking folks standing in a low traffic area interacting with people who are already in the Obama camp. To me, it was a pretty pitiful sight. Just wanted to let everyone know.


Things are crazy around here in terms of rallies and such. I was pretty happy that I got to see Obama twice. Figured that would be it. Well no, he's back tomorrow... I'm actually purposely not going to go, I think. I mean, first time was obvious, then seeing Michelle Obama, then bringing sozlet, but now...? Also it's at a high school and I'm sure it'll be packed.

Then I also just got a special invitation to see Gov. Sebelius at a "Columbus Women for Obama Town Hall Meeting" on Monday. Maybe I'll go to that one, dunno.

Embarrassment of riches. And hopefully it'll all happen again in the lead-up to November! There are nice things about living in Ohio...
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 08:45 pm
("Yeek" was to the tentatively good TX info... thanks for the info in the next post too.)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 09:12 pm
"Yeek," is that a combination of "Yeah!" and "Eek.."? Smile


YOUR WORLD IN POLLS: POLARIZING MCCAIN.

Click to find an Ezra Klein item on polling data from Pew on McCain's favourability data. Unsurprisingly, but very rapidly, he's gaining among Republicans and losing among Democrats. Comes with this graph from Pew:


http://blog.prospect.org/blog/ezraklein/mccainfavorability.jpg
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 09:16 pm
And here's Ezra highlighting more findings from the Pew poll:

Quote:
IS OBAMA A WIMP?

The new Pew Poll has some worrying portents for Obama. In addition to his high rate of Democratic defections -- see Kevin for more on that -- he's got a long way to go convincing the electorate of his foreign policy bona fides. A solid plurality, as you can see in the chart [below], think Obama is "not tough enough," and a vanishingly small number think he's "too tough." Compare that to McCain, who has a strong plurality believing he's "about right," and some bleeding over into "too tough," which has tended to be the safer direction in which to err in American politics.


http://blog.prospect.org/blog/ezraklein/obamapollsecurity.jpg


This isn't only affecting Obama among the class of folks who would sooner vote for a six-legged pig in lipstick than a Democrat. Says Pew: "Obama suffers a significant number of defections from Democrats with more conservative foreign policy views, particularly on the issue of Iraq. A large majority of Democrats -- 70% -- say they want U.S. troops in Iraq to return home as soon as possible; these Democrats overwhelmingly favor either Obama or Clinton over McCain. But roughly a quarter of Democrats believes the troops should remain in Iraq until the situation has stabilized. These voters would support Clinton over McCain by greater than five-to-one (83% vs. 14%). Democrats who support maintaining U. S. forces in Iraq would support Obama over McCain by a smaller margin (66% to 31%)."

On some level, there's nothing odd about that. If you want to hang out in Iraq forever, you should probably vote for the candidate whose policy is perpetual war. Nor should Obama's shortcomings in the toughness sweepstakes shock anyone. Insofar as the foreign policy conversation is going to be about "toughness," Democrats will always lose. The question for Obama, and one of the central rationales behind his candidacy, is that he could help shift that discussion, he could "change the mindset." But it won't be easy. As you can see in Pew's offhanded use of toughness as a stand-in for national security credibility, the conflation of aggression and competence runs pretty deep in our polity. If, by the election's end, this poll question is still being used, Obama's probably not doing too well.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 10:41 pm
In the Texas Democratic primaries next week, will Latinos make up 24% of the voters, or 39%?

Will blacks constitute 14% or 23% of the electorate?

Will people aged 45 or younger account for 30% of the voters, or 51%?

Will Independent voters and Republicans crossing over make out 19% or 37% of the electorate?

Pretty important questions, eh? You'd probably agree that whether the answer on any of these questions falls one way or the other, will have a decisive impact on who will win the primaries, and by how much.

And what about overall turnout? In 2000, just 9% of eligible adults voted in the Democratic primary in Texas; in 2004, it was just 6%. What about now? Will it be 8%? 24%? 40%?

That, too, you'll agree will be absolutely crucial in determining the outcome.

OK, so now you know why competing opinion polls are offering such starkly differing numbers on where the race stands.

Read more about the wildly varying estimations of different pollsters of what the likely constitution of the Democratic electorate will be on March 4 in that linked in Pollster.com item: "The Demographics of Texas Polls".

Considering just how enormously varied the samples of respondents are from pollster to pollster, it's actually a wonder that the polls arent even further scattered around; if you look at it this way, they're actually surprisingly consistent.
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nappyheadedhohoho
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2008 11:01 pm
Some of those crossover voters may be employing a strategy.
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2008 03:50 am
Sounds like the Texas caucus locations are going to be a real down and dirty fight to the finish...

Rumors from my email box today:

Obama is telling audiences in Texas to arrive at their caucus locations at 7pm, Clinton is telling hers to arrive at 6:30. Obama's people think this is a strategy to fill up all the parking in the area before Obama's people get there.

Obama's people think Clinton's people will attempt a repeat of the Nevada caucus techniques where they tried to have the doors closed early before all the Obama people can arrive after finding far away parking places.

From Ben Smith at Politico:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Texas_caucus_hardball.html

March 01, 2008
Read More: Hillary Clinton

Texas caucus hardball


The Dallas Morning News gets hold of Clinton caucus "training materials," in which supporters are instructed to fight for procedural control of caucuses.

The materials say in part, "DO NOT allow the supporter of another candidate to serve in leadership roles."

It goes on to say, "If our supporters are outnumbered, ask the Temporary Chair if one of our supporters can serve as the Secretary, in the interest of fairness.

"The control of the sign-in sheets and the announcement of the delegates allotted to each candidate are the critical functions of the Chair and Secretary. This is why it is so important that Hillary supporters hold these positions."

Some of the moments on the ground in Nevada showed how crucial technical control can be, particularly when -- there, as expected in Texas -- nobody has any idea what the rules are. Really makes you love the caucus process.







And Ohio isn't immune...

Rumors are that Rush Limbaugh is trying to mobilize his listeners in Ohio to vote for Clinton. He wants her to stick around, so Obama is weakened in a drawn out fight.

Now isn't that a celebration every Democratic candidate yearns for. Limbaugh taking credit for your win in Ohio...
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2008 04:41 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
The Dallas Morning News gets hold of Clinton caucus "training materials," in which supporters are instructed to fight for procedural control of caucuses.

The materials say in part, "DO NOT allow the supporter of another candidate to serve in leadership roles." ..

"The control of the sign-in sheets and the announcement of the delegates allotted to each candidate are the critical functions of the Chair and Secretary. This is why it is so important that Hillary supporters hold these positions."

Yuck...
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2008 04:52 pm
nimh wrote:
"Yeek," is that a combination of "Yeah!" and "Eek.."? Smile


It's basically "that's good news but I'm nervous." I think.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Mar, 2008 06:34 pm
I dont think I posted this before.. a map for the results of the Wisconsin Democratic primary:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9038/wiscprimarytk6.png

Click on the map to find an interactive version of the map (which shows the name of the county when you hover over it, nothing more really) on the site of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2008 06:58 am
This info will be of interest to everybody for Tuesday's vote.

http://ruralvotes.com/thefield/?p=809

Preliminary Ohio Delegate Estimates
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Mar, 2008 10:21 am
A first stop for those who want to see the latest polls on the Ohio Democratic primaries is of course this page on Pollster.com, as has been posted already before. (Though RealClearPolitics provides a good alternative.)

One thing with the pollster.com page though is that it has this beautiful graph, with each individual poll marked in as a dot, and a colored trendline to make sense of it all; but while this is a perfect tool to track developments over a longer time, it offers little but a cloud of dots for the very last weeks of the campaign.

For example, this is what the pollster.com graph shows if you crop only the part that tracks the polls out so far in 2008:


http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7603/ohiopollster2008uc7.png


There's a wholly defensible rationale here: to apply a greater magnifying glass would involve magnifying a lot of ups and downs that could be merely statistical noise. But even to visualise exactly that, it's worthwhile to draw a complementary graph, outlining the development of the numbers per individual pollster.

After all, looking at the above graph, it's easy for a layman like me to nod at what still looks like a pretty coherent overall development. It's not immediately clear how diverse and scattered a collection of trends and numbers by individual pollster is involved here.

The graph below does show that. It shows all polls that appeared in the past month. Lots of pollsters have done only one poll in Ohio this last month, and those appear here as individual diamond-shaped markers. A few have done several successive polls - and look at the chaos.

At the same time, it's micro-trends within these last-month and last-week numbers that political junkies are trying to scrutinize - microtrends that wont appear in the pollster.com graph. Do they appear here? Or is it all just Rohrshach? Judge for yourselves:


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3706/ohiofebjb5.png
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