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Get yer polls, bets, numbers & pretty graphs! Elections 2008

 
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 07:49 pm
Re-read the article.
Even if I disagree somewhat with it (and I found out that Alisa Valdés Rodríguez, whose full name is somewhat similar to mine, has also similar roots: mainly Spanish, with a black dash), I gotta say that she can also be interpreted the way Sozobe and Butrflynet did.
So all her readers agreed with her... for different reasons. (Must tell you something about her inability to make herself clear).

Some of the responses to the blog were good, some very good; what angered me were others:

"I continue to be ridiculed by a large proportion of my Puerto Rican, Dominican and Cuban brethren when I claim my blackness. If I had a penny for every time I heard an exasperated sigh followed by "But you're not Black, You're Puerto Rican!" (actually - my father was 1/2 black so na nee na nee boo boo.)"

"...what we commonly refer to as the "latino community" holds negative views of dark skinned people, be they African American or Afro-Columbian. Studes like this one consistently bear witness to the fact that Latino immigrants, especially Mexicans, bear highly negative views of black people that would on a par with your average racist Irish cop"

"the puerto Rican that understand a bui their blackness are those born and raised in New York... perhaps you are one of those....so that´s why I understand your cooments on the NY times articel...but I wouldn´t expect that from a "latino" or "Hispano" "

"Africa is the motherland."

"If you want to get anti black
attitudes from a hispanic ask
los angeles hispanics mostly of
central american and mexican
descent. they come from places
were being black is "TABOO" and
there is virtually no current day
african influence. "

"The Black community built the Civil Rights movement and changed the nation while numbering only 10% of the population. So I know the fact that Latinos 'outnumber' African Americans is largely irrelevant in the context of social and civic change movements"
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 07:58 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
sozobe wrote:
Quote:
Let me just point out that the freaking blog and comments made me very angry.


Really?

I'll re-read it from that perspective, but I thought her overriding point was actually about the diversity within the Latino community, and that blaming the lack of Latino support for Obama on Latino racism was silly, not least because many Latinos ARE also black.


That was the impression I got from it too and that of several of the people who forwarded it to me.

The demographics you cite validate the contention of that blog entry where she was saying that the trumped-up media idea of Latino/Black racism is unfounded and that populations of Latinos and Blacks are not monolithic.


For anyone who missed it, here's the post where I linked to that blog many pages back.

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3058934#3058934

Fbaezer, I've reread it and I'm still not understanding why the anger. Can you explain it to me so I'll be better informed?

What I'm reading is a blog post responding to an article in the NY Times about how unlikely it is that Latinos will vote for a Black. She uses examples of the same demographic mix you cited in your population breakdown and said that Latinos were not monolithic and she was very offended by the NY Times article and their stereotypical depiction of Latinos in a photo of Hillary eating a taco that was meant to show how popular she was with them.

She ended with a taunt to the media telling them to contact her for insights into voting Latinos and not the NY Times.


What am I missing or not understanding?
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 08:01 pm
The way I see it is that those people (the "bad" posters of the blog) have fallen in the cultural pit of American race division. Into the very trap that has helped the racial divide.

I find it disheartening that, while the Republican side plays the whites-minorities tune, the Democratic side (and I mean rank & file & advisors) plays the "division within the minorities" tune. And the advisors "know" that regardless who gets the nomination, latinos & blacks will vote overwhelmingly for the Democratic party come november, and they don't give a sh¡t about the bad milk spilt.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 08:11 pm
That explains what is missing then. I didn't read the comments, I only read her blog entry.

I'm still not understanding though. Are you saying that is incorrect to think that Blacks or Latinos or Asians do not vote in monolithic blocks?

Or, are you saying that people are trying to drive a wedge between the various minorities by pitting their voting statistics up against each other in an effort to force them to vote in monolithic blocks?
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 08:25 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
That explains what is missing then. I didn't read the comments, I only read her blog entry.

I'm still not understanding though. Are you saying that is incorrect to think that Blacks or Latinos or Asians do not vote in monolithic blocks?

Or, are you saying that people are trying to drive a wedge between the various minorities by pitting their voting statistics up against each other in an effort to force them to vote in monolithic blocks?


The second choice. Yes. Happens in both camps. Terrible.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:06 pm
Whole-heartedly agree and that was the motive for me posting a link to that blog. I thought it was making the point rather well.

Reading the comments you cited, I can see where the anger comes from. People forget the common goal in their effort to get their share of a piece of the pie.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 07:25 am
fbaezer wrote:
Nihm, is there any data about the Asian-American vote in California and elsewhere?

The exit poll for California has numbers for the Asian-American vote; they went overwhelmingly for Clinton, by 71% to 25%. Thats even more pro-Hillary than the Latino voters were. And they made up 8% of the Democratic primary voters.

In none of the other states Asians made up a large enough subset for there to be crosstabs for them in the exit polls. They made up 4% of the voters in New Jersey and 3% in Nevada, but that was still too small a subset to provide reliable voting data, and in all the other states that there are exit polls for they made up 2% at most.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 08:50 am
Thanks for further details re: Rodriguez' blog, fbaezer, I understand better now I think.

Re: those New Mexico votes -- still not counted, but just found out that they have until February 15th to finish things up. (I was wondering how long it could go on...)

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/07/still-counting-ballots-in-new-mexico/#more-4177
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 10:24 am
David Brooks' column in the NYT today is funny -- and a propos to this thread as well. Smile

Quote:
Questions for Dr. Retail

QUESTION: Dr. Retail, now that the Democratic presidential race has entered its long, bloody slog phase, I figured it was time to get a fresh perspective. Can you explain to me what it's all about?

Skip to next paragraph

David Brooks

Go to Columnist Page » DR. RETAIL: Why do you bother me with simple problems? Listen, the essential competition in many consumer sectors is between commodity providers and experience providers, the companies that just deliver product and the companies that deliver a sensation, too. There's Safeway, and then there is Whole Foods. There's the PC, and then there's the Mac. There are Holiday Inns, and there are W Hotels. There's Walgreens, and there's The Body Shop.

Hillary Clinton is a classic commodity provider. She caters to the less-educated, less-pretentious consumer. As Ron Brownstein of The National Journal pointed out on Wednesday, she won the non-college-educated voters by 22 points in California, 32 points in Massachusetts and 54 points in Arkansas. She offers voters no frills, just commodities: tax credits, federal subsidies and scholarships. She's got good programs at good prices.

Barack Obama is an experience provider. He attracts the educated consumer. In the last Pew Research national survey, he led among people with college degrees by 22 points. Educated people get all emotional when they shop and vote. They want an uplifting experience so they can persuade themselves that they're not engaging in a grubby self-interested transaction. They fall for all that zero-carbon footprint, locally grown, community-enhancing Third Place hype. They want cultural signifiers that enrich their lives with meaning.

Obama offers to defeat cynicism with hope. Apparently he's going to turn politics into a form of sharing. Have you noticed that he's actually carried into his rallies by a flock of cherubs while the heavens open up with the Hallelujah Chorus? I wonder how he does that.

QUESTION: But why would Democratic votes break down so starkly along educational lines?

DR. RETAIL: The consumer marketplace has been bifurcating for years! It's happening because the educated and uneducated lead different sorts of lives. Educated people are not only growing richer than less-educated people, but their lifestyles are diverging as well. A generation ago, educated families and less-educated families looked the same, but now high school graduates divorce at twice the rate of college graduates. High school grads are much more likely to have kids out of wedlock. High school grads are much more likely to be obese. They're much more likely to smoke and to die younger.

Their attitudes are different. High school grads are much less optimistic than college grads. They express less social trust. They feel less safe in public. They report having fewer friends and lower aspirations. The less educated speak the dialect of struggle; the more educated, the dialect of self-fulfillment

Did you hear the message of Clinton's speech Tuesday night? It's a rotten world out there. Regular folks are getting the shaft. They need someone who'll fight tougher, work harder and put loyalty over independence.

Then did you see the Hopemeister's speech? His schtick makes sense if you've got a basic level of security in your life, if you're looking up, not down. Meanwhile, Obama's people are so taken with their messiah that soon they'll be selling flowers at airports and arranging mass weddings. There's a "Yes We Can" video floating around YouTube in which a bunch of celebrities like Scarlett Johansson and the guy from the Black Eyed Peas are singing the words to an Obama speech in escalating states of righteousness and ecstasy. If that video doesn't creep out normal working-class voters, then nothing will.

QUESTION: Your cynicism is really interfering with my vibe. I don't think you're feeling the fierce urgency of now.

DR. RETAIL: Believe me, those of us who bill by the hour completely feel the fierce urgency of now. As John Edwards would say, this is personal with me.

QUESTION: So does this mean the Democrats are fundamentally divided?

DR. RETAIL: Why do you political people always think in either/or terms? No. Safeway and Whole Foods people shop in each other's stores. They just feel less at home.

QUESTION: So who's going to win?

DR. RETAIL: Observe the marketplace. The next states on the primary calendar have tons of college-educated Obamaphile voters. Maryland is 5th among the 50 states, Virginia is 6th. But later on, we get the Hillary-friendly states. Ohio is 40th in college education. Pennsylvania is 32nd.

But it'll still be tied after all that. The superdelegates will pick the nominee ?- the party honchos, the deal-makers, the donors, the machine. Swinging those people takes a level of cynicism even Dr. Retail can't pretend to understand. That's Tammany Hall. That's the court at Versailles under Louis XIV.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 11:15 am
Brooks is an ass.

http://www.pollster.com/USTopzDems.png

Look at the slope of the line!!!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 11:25 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Brooks is an ass.

I think he has a good substantive point, underneath the irony.

And I will prove it with a table of the kind I made about white/Latino/black votes earlier, highlighting the education gap... but not right now :wink:
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 11:29 am
Oh, and that pollster.com graph stretched the page... I mean, beyond what you can still solve by scrolling to the right a little and pushing the names/avatar off to the left. Have some mercy with those of us on a 1024 x 768 screen, we're still a majority...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 11:37 am
nimh wrote:
Oh, and that pollster.com graph stretched the page... I mean, beyond what you can still solve by scrolling to the right a little and pushing the names/avatar off to the left. Have some mercy with those of us on a 1024 x 768 screen, we're still a majority...


Damnit! I hate when others do that...

sorry

Cycloptichorn

ps it is BIG mo tho, takes a big graph hehehe
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 11:41 am
I liked the Brooks column too, I'd put it in my politics blog thread a bit earlier.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 11:47 am
nimh wrote:
Oh, and that pollster.com graph stretched the page... I mean, beyond what you can still solve by scrolling to the right a little and pushing the names/avatar off to the left. Have some mercy with those of us on a 1024 x 768 screen, we're still a majority...
Yes, pretty please with sugar on top, either link large pics or take the extra minute to reduce them at Imageshack.net.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 11:49 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
nimh wrote:
Oh, and that pollster.com graph stretched the page... I mean, beyond what you can still solve by scrolling to the right a little and pushing the names/avatar off to the left. Have some mercy with those of us on a 1024 x 768 screen, we're still a majority...
Yes, pretty please with sugar on top, either link large pics or take the extra minute to reduce them at Imageshack.net.


Okay okay

sheesh

lol

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 12:39 pm
Interesting:

http://www.surveyusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/fixed-active-hi-level-pollster-report-card-through-020608.JPG

From SUSA's site, of course (given that they're at the top of the list).
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 02:30 pm
Hillary got her boost to announce her candidacy from organizations like NOW and FOB, while Obama got his boost to announce his candidacy from an organization of students on college campuses and then spread to the community around them.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 02:36 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
nimh wrote:
Oh, and that pollster.com graph stretched the page... I mean, beyond what you can still solve by scrolling to the right a little and pushing the names/avatar off to the left. Have some mercy with those of us on a 1024 x 768 screen, we're still a majority...


Damnit! I hate when others do that...

sorry

Cycloptichorn

ps it is BIG mo tho, takes a big graph hehehe


Did we really need another graph to demonstrate that Obama has become more and more popular? I mean really? I get that your excited, but did anyone learn anything NEW from that graph?
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2008 03:24 pm
I did. Thanks for posting it Cyclo, even if it is oversized.
0 Replies
 
 

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