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Get yer polls, bets, numbers & pretty graphs! Elections 2008

 
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 07:59 pm
How Obama navigates through all this pressure being applied by the DNC on various levels will be a huge test for him as to his integrity and the sincerity of his basic grassroots campaign philosophy.

A lot of people will be watching for him to stutter or stumble.
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 08:00 pm
Butrflynet wrote:



Yep, and I said as much on another thread.


Damn. I thought it was a pretty original notion. I will reiterate that a lot of (young) Clinton or Obama supporters will be disillusioned if it comes down to the super-delegates in the smoke-filled room.
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 08:02 pm
Wow, only 290 votes separate Clinton and Obama in NM now.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 08:03 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
Why is it only a "proper primary" when there aren't a lot of African-Americans to campaign and vote for him?

Does that mean that the mostly caucasian states that Hillary won aren't proper primaries since they had a lot of white folk to campaign and vote for her?

Sorry, no, thats definitely not what was meant.

'Proper' primaries as opposed to caucuses, was the thinking.

The argument being that the only 'proper' primaries that Obama won so far were those were there was a sizable African-AMerican population to help him over the hill - plus his homestate Illinois.

Thats not quite true - there's Connecticut and Utah, he won those too, and there's not a lot of blacks in either. So he can win primaries in states without a sizable African-American population too. But I admit that CT and UT are not overwhelmingly convincing examples.

The main argument from that particular Hillary defender was that winning caucuses, which can be helped a long way by intensive ground organisation and a relatively small group of really motivated volunteers, is a different thing from primaries, where you need to persuade much larger numbers of people, and cant realy on the infectious community enthusiasm as much. And that would then be Obama's undoing in large states like Texas and Ohio.

Of course, you can easily turn that argument around and point out that Hillary has totally failed at working the caucus system, and as a consequence was abjectly defeated in practically all caucus states.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 08:06 pm
realjohnboy wrote:
Butrflynet wrote:



Yep, and I said as much on another thread.


Damn. I thought it was a pretty original notion. I will reiterate that a lot of (young) Clinton or Obama supporters will be disillusioned if it comes down to the super-delegates in the smoke-filled room.



Agreed. This convention is going to end up being a viability test for the wholeness of the DNC. With this much grassroots interest in politics it would be very easy for someone (Obama) to take up the mantle for a third party or for his supporters to mount a write-in campaign, thus giving the election to McCain without having to vote for him.

And, it won't just be the young supporters who are disillusioned. Those smoke-filled rooms will contain many of the very same people who were present in Chicago protesting the 1968 convention tactics. Talk about past vs. future...
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 08:13 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
realjohnboy wrote:
Butrflynet wrote:



Yep, and I said as much on another thread.


Damn. I thought it was a pretty original notion. I will reiterate that a lot of (young) Clinton or Obama supporters will be disillusioned if it comes down to the super-delegates in the smoke-filled room.



Agreed. This convention is going to end up being a viability test for the wholeness of the DNC. With this much grassroots interest in politics it would be very easy for someone (Obama) to take up the mantle for a third party or for his supporters to mount a write-in campaign, thus giving the election to McCain without having to vote for him.


If it turns out the Clinton wins in some backroom DNC voting process...AND Obama runs as a 3rd candidate, would you still support him in that decision?
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 08:13 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
realjohnboy wrote:
Butrflynet wrote:



Yep, and I said as much on another thread.


Damn. I thought it was a pretty original notion. I will reiterate that a lot of (young) Clinton or Obama supporters will be disillusioned if it comes down to the super-delegates in the smoke-filled room.



Agreed. This convention is going to end up being a viability test for the wholeness of the DNC. With this much grassroots interest in politics it would be very easy for someone (Obama) to take up the mantle for a third party or for his supporters to mount a write-in campaign, thus giving the election to McCain without having to vote for him.


Oh, I don't see that happening. Rather, the flaming burst of enthusiasm amongst the young for politics in general and the Dems in particular could be snuffed out by a bunch of old hacks. (I almost said old farts, but I didn't want to offend anyone). That would be the big loss for the Dems and for the country.
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 08:31 pm
It depends on what caused his withdrawal.

My guess is that his philosophy of unity and his integrity will be used against him as argument for him to withdraw before the convention date for the sake of party unity. He'll have a tough decision to sell to his supporters but they'd probably more easily accept it (not without first fighting for it in the voting booths). That's what Dean is counting on. It will save face for the DNC and they won't have to deal with the MI/FL question. That's also why his supporters are now fired up to work in the remaining states to deliver the votes to him.

If it becomes a huge fight at the convention and a bunch of last-minute unfair rule changes are made, I'd write his name in before marking the ballot for Clinton or not vote at all.

Like I added on to the last post, it won't just be the young supporters who are disillusioned. Those smoke-filled rooms will contain many of the very same people who were present in Chicago protesting the 1968 convention rule-change tactics. Talk about past vs. future...
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Feb, 2008 08:48 pm
The amusing thing about this whole situation is that the very thing that would eliminate the fight at the convention and probably create party unity over the results (a future caucus vote in MI/FL after an interval to allow for campaigning there) is being hotly contested by the state of Florida because of the inter-state competition to be "first" in the primary season.

It is coming down to Clinton and the DNC convincing Florida that it is in her/their best interest to have a primary redo via a fair caucus rather than fight it out at the convention over whether or not the rules should be changed because Florida dared to be one of the first.

Of course, they'd also have to convince the rest of the country that it is okay for the people in Florida to get a vote redo while those in other states who voted for candidates who withdrew early from the race can't.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 07:31 am
Messy messy messy.

One random thought I had last night (after turning off the computer)... By all accounts Hillary really expected to have the nomination sealed up by now. That affects money, which we already know, but it also affects organization. I wouldn't be surprised if her major organizational advantage in the states up until now will fade somewhat from here on in. Of course some of the advantage is scalable -- if your husband is Bill Clinton, that's going to help pretty much no matter where you are. But in terms of the grass-roots, on-the-ground stuff, it makes sense that Obama has been preparing for this eventuality longer and more thoroughly than Hillary has been.

Still no predictions, though. Except more messiness, probably.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 08:17 am
17,000 provisional votes in NM will tell the tale:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iCc92PUVIygkNFF0LiBuVuSFmLXAD8ULA95O0
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 08:21 am
nimh wrote:
Thats not quite true - there's Connecticut and Utah, he won those too, and there's not a lot of blacks in either. So he can win primaries in states without a sizable African-American population too. But I admit that CT and UT are not overwhelmingly convincing examples.


Well, there's also Missouri and Delaware. But I understand what this person is saying -- that Obama's strength is his weakness, so to speak. Well, duh, he's the challenger so he has to get people to know him without the advantage of having been in the public eye for the last 15 years or so. He has to work harder for it and he has to do it from the ground up. Obviously that makes bigger states harder for him to win. But it doesn't mean he can't do it.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:07 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Well, there's also Missouri and Delaware.

In Missouri and Delaware it was the sizable African-American population in each that pushed Obama over the hump, just like in Georgia and Alabama. (Blacks made up 17% of the voters in Missouri, and 28% in Delaware.) So those do not affect the guy's argument that - (my paraphrasing) - "the only 'proper' primaries that Obama won so far were those were there was a sizable African-American population to help him over the hill - plus his homestate Illinois." Connecticut and Utah are the only exceptions to that, and that's not much.

Quote:
Well, duh, he's the challenger so he has to get people to know him without the advantage of having been in the public eye for the last 15 years or so. He has to work harder for it and he has to do it from the ground up. Obviously that makes bigger states harder for him to win. But it doesn't mean he can't do it.

Agreed - he's got a full month to prepare for Ohio and Texas, more for Pennsylvania. If he starts advertising and campaigning there straight away now I think he should stand a chance. I mean, even in the bigger Super Tuesday states that he lost, he did make up a lot of ground in little time.

But yes, the guy did have a point in that those three - big states, primaries instead of caucuses, lots of blue-collar whites, will be tough nuts to crack. And I dont know about you, but I hadnt myself realised the primaries vs caucuses divide yet, I mean, not that it was this big. And of course it makes sense that it is easier for Obama to score in caucuses that involve a smaller slice of the electorate and are all about conveying enthusiasm and mobilising activists than in a primary, especially a big-state primary. But that does imply a warning.

I mean, Obama won big across all population groups in the caucuses in states like MN, ND, ID, KS, AK - mostly lily-white states. So that's the good news! But among the states that had primaries (or like NM, primary-like caucuses) - the ones that there are exit polls for - Obama beat Hillary among whites in just 3 of the 16 states. Only in IL, NM and UT. He got close in states with lots of higher-educated/income people like California and Connecticut, but trailed Hillary among whites by double digits in DE, MA, MO, AZ, NY, NJ, OK, TN, AL and AR.

Now in Louisiana, Maryland and Virginia, he will be fine, because the 30-40% of the white vote he usually gets will be augmented with massive support of the black voters, who make up 33-46% of the primary electorate there, while there are few Latinos. But Ohio and Texas are a different story, and I suppose Pennsylvania is too (does anyone have the numbers for the demographics of the primary electorate in these states, actually?).

You could argue that the lesson of Super Tuesday is that, while Obama's ground game (and Hillary's neglect) made all the caucus states topple his way; all his charisma, the motivation of his volunteers on the ground, and the media blitz he got were not enough to swing the white majority in states that had primaries instead of caucuses his way. Not within the time window he had.

So if he is to win states like OH, PA and TX on March 4 and beyond, he needs to focus a good chunk of his campaign resources there already right now. Start personally campaigning there straight away, and not rely too much on the momentum of a string of smaller victories throughout this month.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:08 am
A lot of time in Ohio. Especially Columbus.

:-)
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maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:12 am
And the Caucus/Primary divide is important, because as you all know, the election in November is NOT a cuacus. If Obama cannot get his message out or rile up voters over the television and in TV ads, he's not going to get the same results on election day.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:14 am
realjohnboy wrote:
Rather, the flaming burst of enthusiasm amongst the young for politics in general and the Dems in particular could be snuffed out by a bunch of old hacks.

I wonder what happened to all those Deaniacs of '04? Did a lot of them go to Obama's campaign now, or is it a different set of people?

(I wonder what that really nice guy who was here on A2K who supported Dean so much - I forgot his name, he lived in the Northeast - what he is thinking of this race?)
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:15 am
FWIW, I was never a Dean supporter...
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:25 am
Quote:

So if he is to win states like OH, PA and TX on March 4 and beyond, he needs to focus a good chunk of his campaign resources there already right now. Start personally campaigning there straight away, and not rely too much on the momentum of a string of smaller victories throughout this month.



Agreed.

Obama is focusing on Washington State (where he is winning) this weekend, but it'll be Texas and Ohio soon enough.

He just dropped a ton of money on ads there and opened major offices in Dallas, Houston, San Antonio. Don't know about Ohio. He's going on the air there starting monday.

Nimh, Texas has a really weird caucus set-up; do you know more about how it works? I can't figure it out.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:28 am
nimh wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Well, there's also Missouri and Delaware.

In Missouri and Delaware it was the sizable African-American population in each that pushed Obama over the hump, just like in Georgia and Alabama. (Blacks made up 17% of the voters in Missouri, and 28% in Delaware.) So those do not affect the guy's argument that - (my paraphrasing) - "the only 'proper' primaries that Obama won so far were those were there was a sizable African-American population to help him over the hill - plus his homestate Illinois." Connecticut and Utah are the only exceptions to that, and that's not much.


I guess the word "sizable" is open to interpretation, but I assumed he was speaking of the kind of "sizable" African-American population that turned out in SC, Georgia, and Alabama. I'm not sure I see 17% as sizable. But if you're going to say that's what tipped things his way... well, I don't know. Ok. Didn't know that 28% of Delaware voters were African-American.

Pretty much agree with the rest, though.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Feb, 2008 09:40 am
Among white voters, exit polls show a huge gender gap

How did Clinton and Obama and do among white men and white women? How big was the difference?

Among black voters, there has been little in the way of a "fight of the sexes" this primary season; both men and women came out for Obama en masse. But among white voters, women often voted very differently from men.


http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6978/whitedemsgenderexitpollab2.png


Among white men, Obama defeated Clinton in 8 of the 20 states we have exit poll numbers for. Most are in New England (NH, MA, CT) or the West (CA, UT, NM). But he was defeated by her in 12. Those included 7 of the 8 states in the South, as well as Hillary's home turf in NY and NJ.

All in all, then, in a unique race where white male Democrats were choosing between a woman candidate and a black candidate, the result was something of a tie in regions. Obama got over 50% in 5 states, over 40% in 12 states.

Among white women, however, it's a different story. In just two states (IL and NM) did he best Hillary Clinton among them. In just 5 states did he get over 40% of their votes. In half of the states, he got at most a third.

An interesting corollary is how the gender gap varied from state to state. The "gender gap index" in the table is the sum of the difference between Obama's result among (white) men and women and the difference between Hillary's result among (white) men and women. In some states, the sexes were far more divided than in others.

California and Utah, two very different states, took the biscuit. In Illinois, Missouri, Oklahoma and Alabama men and women mostly agreed with each other. Why? Speculate away... Smile
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