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Get yer polls, bets, numbers & pretty graphs! Elections 2008

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 12:41 pm
In context:

Hillary's 55% to 45% victory in Pennsylvania was comparable with her wins in:

New Jersey (54/44)
Ohio (54/44)

Interesting - two neighbouring states are the only states with similar results.*

Hillary's victory in Pennsylvania was smaller than her wins in:

Rhode Island (58/40)
Massachusetts (56/41)
New York (57/40)

and

Tennessee (54/40)
Oklahoma (55/31)
Arkansas (70/27)

But Hillary's victory in Pennsylvania was larger than her wins in:

Texas (51/47)
New Mexico (49/48)
Arizona (50/42)
Nevada (51/45)
California (51/43)

New Hampshire (39/36)

Interesting regional patterns there!


* I'm wondering: Obama's campaign touted that he had "improved his showing among white voters and voters over 60 since the Ohio primary". But since the overall totals are the same, does that mean that he lost ground among other groups - maybe among his 'core' groups?

Or does it mean that those voted for him in the same measures as in Ohio, but turned out less massively (or that Clinton's core groups turned out more massively) than in Ohio?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 12:44 pm
Did Ohio also have a closed primary? I'm thinking that might have something to do with it.
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Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 12:51 pm
nimh, check your damn demos, PA has the most older voters than any state except Florida. And fewer African-American voters than Ohio and many states.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 01:23 pm
Interesting to observe the wide gulf between the viewpoints of the Obama & Clinton camps in this hard-fought contest.

On one hand we see the Obama camp expressing increasing frustration with the obstinacy of the Clinton campaign in failing to recognize the "obvious" fact that they cannot win enough delegates in the remaining state contests to alter the situation. They usually go on to claim that Hillary is hurting the party and arming the Republicans in a protracted and increasingly partisan struggle.

Roxxxxxanne claims that Clinton will need 80% of the remaining delegates to close the current gap of about 120 delegates between the two candidates. I have read 60% of the remaining candidates from other sources, and my own calculations, based on the frustratingly confusing data, suggest something like 60% might be the right answer. (If so it does seem achievable.)

On the other hand the situation, as viewed from what I can estimate may be the perspective of Clinton supporters, seems to suggest that, -- given the uncertainties with respect to remaining elected delegates; unanswered questions about the Florida & Michigan delegations; what they likely interpret as an increasing tide of public appeal for Clinton (and resistance to Obama); the narrowing gap between the candidates in terms of total primary votes cast ; and the uncertain behavior of super delegates in a still dynamic situation -- the odds of success in this very high stakes contest are far too high for them to give up the struggle with more than four months still remaining before the convention. Moreover, many likely believe that Obama has become increasingly vulnerable; that public support for him has peaked; and that Clinton is truly their best hope for victory in November.

Obama supporters may be in a rather frustrating situation in which factors which seem obvious and compelling to them just aren't enough to persuade even reasonable Clinton strategists to see the situation and act as they wish.

There appears to be no doubt that Hillary will stay in the game at least through the next round of primaries, and a strong likelihood that the results they yield will leave the situation more or less as it is today. If so this contest will indeed go on to the convention.
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 01:37 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Moreover, many likely believe that Obama has become increasingly vulnerable; that public support for him has peaked; and that Clinton is truly their best hope for victory in November.


Tell me, George, isn't it wishful thinking from your part, as McCain would have a less hard task against Clinton than against Obama?

Just asking...
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 02:06 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Did Ohio also have a closed primary? I'm thinking that might have something to do with it.

Nope, Ohio had an open primary. But it had only a modest effect.

Whereas previously, Obama benefited from cross-over Indy and Republican voters, there were enough Limbaugh voters (and perhaps genuine Indys and Repubs for Hillary) in Ohio to have these voters break into clean halves. Obama got 49% of Republicans and 50% of Independents.

Since Obama lost the Democrats 42% to 56%, that still did help his numbers a little, but really only a little: it got him about 2 extra percentage points.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 02:23 pm
nimh wrote:
Obama suffers from race; Clinton benefits from gender

At least, that's what the preliminary Pennsylvanian exit polls suggest.

The NYT has some more detailed, troubling crosstabs about this in this story by Adam Nagourney:

The Bruising Will Go on for the Party, Too

Quote:
The results of the exit poll, conducted at 40 precincts across Pennsylvania by Edison/Mitofsky for the television networks and The Associated Press, also found stark evidence that Mr. Obama's race could be a problem in the general election.

Sixteen percent of white voters said race mattered in deciding who they voted for, and just 54 percent of those voters said they would support Mr. Obama in a general election; 27 percent of them said they would vote for Mr. McCain if Mr. Obama was the Democratic nominee, and 16 percent said they would not vote at all.

That's about 5-10% of the Democratic base Obama would lose over race.

The story also has quite possibly overlapping categories in which Obama will take hits against McCain in the fall:

Quote:
Exit polls again highlighted the racial, economic, sex and values divisions within the party. To take one example, only 60 percent of Democratic Catholic voters said they would vote for Mr. Obama in a general election; 21 percent said they would vote for Mr. McCain, exit polls show. [..]

Mrs. Clinton defeated him among [gun owners and church-goers]. About 20 percent of voters in those groups said they would choose Mr. McCain over Mr. Obama in a general election.

Two thoughts about this:

***

IMO, anyone who maintained that race would not play all too prominent a role in this election anymore, or even that the race issue was no more pernicious than the gender factor, should think again.

For sure, gender bias and stereotyping is far more blatant than race baiting when it comes to how the media cover Hillary and Obama. TV talking heads can talk about Hillary as a woman in ways that they would never get away with saying about Obama as black man.

But when it comes down to the choice voters make in the voting booth, the issue of race is more pernicious than the one of gender. The PA exit polls shows that men for whom the gender of the candidate was an important consideration actually broke to Hillary, while whites for whom race was an issue overwhelmingly broke against Obama. But I also think race is more of a disadvantage than gender if only because at least the anti-woman vote of male voters is easily trumped by the pro-woman vote of female voters who vote for Hillary partly out of a sense of solidarity. There just arent enough African-Americans to get the same kind of equivalence on race.

***

In short, in order to win, Obama will have to forge that new coalition that everyone has been talking about, appealing to swathes of independents, suburban voters, higher educated voters, and the kind culturally liberal, fiscally conservative voters whom the Republicans have been losing in droves. Because there are significant chunks of the old Democratic coalition that he will lose because of race.

But that, of course, might mean polishing his message back away from the dose of populism he injected into his campaign again, which in turn will make him sensitive to hemorraging more support among blue collar, ethnic/Catholic, small town voters.

Hillary's map in comparison looks more straightforward, if also more soul-deadening. She wont appeal to many who didnt also vote for the Dems in the struggles of 2000 and 2004 between entrenched camps. But on the other hand she would lose fewer of those who did. It would be an old-fashioned campaign of mobilising the base and digging in. Obama definitely offers more upward promise, but as the above quotes show also considerably more downward risk.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 04:00 pm
Francis wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Moreover, many likely believe that Obama has become increasingly vulnerable; that public support for him has peaked; and that Clinton is truly their best hope for victory in November.


Tell me, George, isn't it wishful thinking from your part, as McCain would have a less hard task against Clinton than against Obama?

Just asking...


I wasn't outlining my own views in that paragraph - rather trying to characterize the viewpoint of Clinton supporters. I think that was clear enough in the context.

I have no fixed opinion on the question: there are arguments both ways. There are reasons for one to suppose Obama's support has peaked and may be in for a steady, if slow, decline. That, of course, may or may not prove to be accurate.

Beyond that, you have unfairly prejudged my intent here. I was attempting to provide a dispassionate view of this struggle, to characterize the viewpoints of both sides in the debate, and provide some insights into why the the Obama & Clinton camps - even as they are represented here on A2K - have so much difficulty understanding each other.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 05:48 pm
Thanks George. I can now enter the pub, confidently, and explain to my mystified friends what the heck is going on.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 05:55 pm
This is cool:

http://flowingdata.com/wp-content/plugins/yet-another-photoblog%202/cache/0416_nat_subobama.bvons93tujw48ksg8wg0o4wwk.azayxg50vkwk0g080ko8kw8s4.th.jpeg

(From the NYT originally, this is a slightly bigger version.)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 06:27 pm
VERY cool, Soz!!
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 06:36 pm
Rrrooonn Paaauulll!

Factoid: The 16% he got in Pennsylvania was Ron Paul's shared sixth best result in the season so far - and by far his best result in a primary, rather than caucus.

1. 25% Montana (caucus)
2. 22% Washington (caucus, Feb 9)
3. 21% North Dakota (caucus)
4. 18% Maine (caucus)
5. 17% Alaska (caucus)
6. 16% Pennsylvania (primary)
6. 16% Minnesota (causus)
8. 14% Nevada (caucus)
9. 11% Kansas (caucus)
10. 10% Iowa (caucus)


http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5254/ronpaultop10ou0.png
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Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 06:45 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Francis wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Moreover, many likely believe that Obama has become increasingly vulnerable; that public support for him has peaked; and that Clinton is truly their best hope for victory in November.


Tell me, George, isn't it wishful thinking from your part, as McCain would have a less hard task against Clinton than against Obama?

Just asking...

There are reasons for one to suppose Obama's support has peaked and may be in for a steady, if slow, decline. That, of course, may or may not prove to be accurate.




Now that is clearly wishful thinking. Obama has the nomination locked up and is playing rope-a-dope with Hillary. It is a strategy that will assure him the nomination but doesn't accomplish much else. Unfortunately, I think he may have to go a little bit "kitchen-sink" on Hillary in Indiana assuring a victory and finally putting an end to this insanity.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 06:45 pm
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 07:00 pm
A user called dreaminonempty at OpenLeft has another really cool map.

Really Cool Thing #1 about this map: It doesnt just show who won what county; it shows at a glance by how much the two candidates won the different counties.

That is to say: the NYT map above showed the margin of victory for each candidate by county in absolute numbers or votes -- which is a useful tool if you want to look at where the two candidates really racked up the winning votes. But it doesnt give you any idea of where the candidates' respective bulwarks are, because a 80% blowout in a small, rural county still gives you a small circle in the NYT map.

This map fills that gap almost perfectly. (The only gripe I have is the colour-coding, which works except for Obama's highest leads. I.e: looking at this map I wouldnt have guessed, without looking at the legend, that Obama did better in Philly than in Centre County. The blue-to-green works well but the tailing off to yellow not so much.)

Really Cool Thing #2 about this map: It doesnt stop at the state borders, but draws in the neighbouring counties in OH, NY, NJ, DE, MD and VA too. This allows you to see the regional continuities across the state borders, which are very clear.

Dreaminonempty explains:

Quote:
We see pretty good continuity across state borders, and, again, urban and collegiate islands where Obama has greater support.

The patterns we have seen across the country stayed pretty much the same in Pennsylvania - there certainly were some improvements for Obama according to the exit polls, but no [enormous] changes


He's got nationwide maps too! But I'll save those for a later post, or go take a peek yourself already.

Here's the map:


http://politicalmaps.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/pawp6.gif
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 07:09 pm
nimh wrote:
This map fills that gap almost perfectly. (The only gripe I have is the colour-coding, which works except for Obama's highest leads. I.e: looking at this map I wouldnt have guessed, without looking at the legend, that Obama did better in Philly than in Centre County. The blue-to-green works well but the tailing off to yellow not so much.)


Nick Beaudrot at Cogitamus has a map that works better in terms of colour-coding:


http://thinkery.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/23/pennsylvania_dem.png


He comments:

Quote:
This is a mostly unsurprising map, as Obama won Philadelphia and some of its suburbs, State College, and the city of Pittsburgh while losing the rest of the state, including suburban Pittsburgh, leading to a loss on Allegheny county.

Obama fared worst in Southwestern Pennsylvania and the Scranton-Wilkes-Barre region. He kept the margins unexpectedly close in York, Lancaster [*], and other counties in the Harrisburg and Philadelphia media markets. On the whole his performance in rural Pennsylvania, with an older electorate, was better than it was in Ohio. [..]

If I were Paul Tewes I'd be mostly happy with this result. And in retrospect the decision to spend the final Monday in Pittsburgh instead of Philadelphia wasn't such a bad iea.


Quote:
[*:] Lancaster is a heavily Republican county, so what you probably have there is a "rump liberal" Democratic party.
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Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 08:12 pm
georgeob1 wrote:


Roxxxxxanne claims that Clinton will need 80% of the remaining delegates to close the current gap of about 120 delegates between the two candidates. I have read 60% of the remaining candidates from other sources, and my own calculations, based on the frustratingly confusing data, suggest something like 60% might be the right answer. (If so it does seem achievable.)



Those who engage in wishful thinking often find comfort in not getting their facts right. (thos nasty little facts!) Obama has a 166 pledged delegate count lead with 409 (NYT) left to be decided. 60% will leave her far short, you do the math.

MSNBC Political Director Chuck Todd gave me the 80% figure. He said today that it is impossible for her to win the pledged delegate count, that is why their talking point today is popular vote and they don't even mention delegate count.

A big win in NC (or maybe just a win) and a 1 vote Indiana win will convince enough SDs to commit and give Obama the necessary count to end this insanity.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 09:02 pm
In the first place, I don't really give a damn which candidate wins the Democrat primary. I believe their respective prospects in the final election are about equal, and look on a presidency by either with roughly equal dread. My posts were only directed at characterizing the respective positions of the Obama & Clinton camps as accurately as I can and thus suggesting reasons why I believe the impasse will continue.

I did take the trouble to check the numbers. My source for delegate counts by state and results so far are from the Wikipedia site on the Democrat primary. The data compares well with the counts in the DNC website, though I have made no assumptions about the eventual position of regular delegates pledged to Edwards.

Using results through & including Pennsylvania on this site, the pledged delegate counts are as follows;
Obama -- 1,490; Clinton -- 1,398; Edwards -- 18

The remaining primaries involve 408 pledged delegates. To close the gap and yield equal counts of pledged delegates between the candidates, Clinton must win 280 and Obama 128 of the remaining delegates. That works out to 68.6% of those remaining. I never claimed to know the fraction Clinton would need, noting only that I had read a source that claimed about 60% and that seemed a better estimate to me than the 80% you asserted were positively, definitely required. It turns out I was right and you were wrong. (Even if one assumes Obama picks up ALL of the pledged delegates for Edwards, Hillary still needs only 72% to get a tie.)

There are a total of 791 superdelegates also in play, and I believe they will remain with their fingers in the wind as long as they can in this close contest.

Finally there are the 313 pledged delegates and 55 superdelegates assigned to Michigan and Florida. I don't make any forecast about how this will turn out, but I doubt seriously that the party would wish simply to disenfranchise those voters.

In short, Obama does indeed have a significant lead, but it is really absurd to suppose that, in a hard fought race that is still revealing its own dynamic changes; with 696 superdelegates in play in the states that have already held primaries; 408 pledged and 95 superdelegates in play in the remaining primaries; and with 313 pledged & 55 super delegates tied up in the Florida/Michigan fiascos; -- that a 152 delegate Obama lead at this point precludes any possibility of a Clinton win, particularly with four plus months still remaining before the convention.

The Clinton camp also shows every indication that they really believe there is a realistic chance for their candidate to win. Given the effort and costs already sunk in this campaign, those remaining and the high stakes involved, this is a realistic view. It is they who will decide this issue, not the self-appointed experts here who so eagerly imply they have an exclusive grip on the matter.

If there is any wishful thinking going on here it is not mine. Instead it is very clearly to be found among those who so earnestly protest the absurdity of any continuing effort by Clinton and who so frantically impugn the motives of anyone who dares to suggest she may have a rational basis for continuing the effort.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 10:21 pm
Come on George; let's call a spade a spade. Considering SC, Oregon and Montana are likely all Obama States; that 72% (accurate by my estimate) may as well be 90%. This essentially means Clinton can only win if the Supers overrule the people (in which case massive numbers of people would absolutely despise Clinton, and rioting would ensue) or if the DNC changes their rules via some super sleazy back-room dealing (in which case massive numbers of people would absolutely despise Clinton, and rioting would ensue).

I don't believe you can cheat the first viable black Presidential candidate out of the nomination after he wins the most delegates... let alone with his leads in number of states and the popular vote as well.

I further don't believe for one fleeting moment that you think Hillary and Obama have equal chances against McCain.

Our next President will be Barack Obama or John McCain, period. Why? Because Hillary supporters would have to cut off their nose to spite their face in order to protest Obama's fair and square victory to the point of abandoning their principles. Obama supporters, on the other hand, would have every legitimate reason to abandon Clinton for cheating Obama out of the nomination after he bested her in the Primary.

I'll grant you; Democrats have made some pretty hideous-stupid decisions in the past (John Kerry, (about the only guy out there who couldn't beat Bush)), but I really don't believe they're going to blow this one. Collectively; they simply cannot be that dumb. And, although I appreciate your desire for a Hillary/McCain race (and believe it's the reason you paint it the way you do), neither could you. :wink:
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okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Apr, 2008 10:33 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:


I'll grant you; Democrats have made some pretty hideous-stupid decisions in the past (John Kerry, (about the only guy out there who couldn't beat Bush)), but I really don't believe they're going to blow this one. Collectively; they simply cannot be that dumb. And, although I appreciate your desire for a Hillary/McCain race (and believe it's the reason you paint it the way you do), neither could you. :wink:

Collectively, they are that dumb, Bill, or they would be running somebody besides a couple of losers, Clinton and Obama. Obama is another big loss in November waiting to happen. They have made a number of mistakes, one big one being the super delegates. What a dumb idea, period. They have also created the train wreck with Obama by trumping him up as the great messiah after he did what, he gave a speech, thats all, and now when he is coming under increased scrutiny, I don't think he has what it takes.

Not just me with this opinion. Alot of people are starting to see the handwriting on the wall. It is simply too late to change horses now, but all they have is a couple of lame ones in the running now.
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