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Get yer polls, bets, numbers & pretty graphs! Elections 2008

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:48 pm
realjohnboy wrote:
I think I have this right. Correct me if I am wrong.

Clinton is running out of money.

Contributions can be made to a candidate's primary campaign and/or to the November election campaign. But the money contributed, which has a cap on it, cannot be comingled. Once designated, it can't be reallocated.
The Clinton folks never foresaw that the primary race would go on for so long, so they paid more attention to raising money for the general election against the Repub.
Clinton has already lent $5 million in personal money to the campaign and reportedly will have to kick in another $5 million to get through PA.
If she wins by, say, 10 points, she might get momentum in terms of fundraising for the remaining primaries. But is she staggers in with a mediocre win or (gasp) loses PA, she is dead meat.

Follow the money.


And the unfortunate thing is, her lack of money is one of the things that really doomed her - back in February.

She just didn't have the money in February to contest all those contests, and Obama rolled up the pledged delegate lead, and she can't catch up.

If Clinton wins by 10 points in PA, she will catch up 3-7 pledged delegates. Per DemConWatch, she's currently down 164. It just isn't going to be enough for her to catch up, and in fact, since so many of the remaining delegates are going to be given out in PA, she'll be statistically farther behind then she is now, which is sort of ironic.

Cycloptichorn
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:50 pm
I read somewhere yesterday that some pundants are thinking that if she loses the nomination, rather than her campaign returning all the "general election" designated donations as mandated by law, she will continue to run but not as a Democrat.

Do you think she'll switch to Nader's party and run against him? :wink:
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 07:51 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
I read somewhere yesterday that some pundants are thinking that if she loses the nomination, rather than her campaign returning all the "general election" designated donations as mandated by law, she will continue to run but not as a Democrat.

Do you think she'll switch to Nader's party and run against him? :wink:


I have a hard time seeing that happening. Yup. She really would be pilloried for doing so.

Cycloptichorn
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 08:13 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:


If Clinton wins by 10 points in PA, she will catch up 3-7 pledged delegates. Per DemConWatch, she's currently down 164. It just isn't going to be enough for her to catch up, and in fact, since so many of the remaining delegates are going to be given out in PA, she'll be statistically farther behind then she is now, which is sort of ironic.

Cycloptichorn


You have been beating the drum loudly for some time, Cyclops, about how Clinton has been slowly losing ground to Obama in the pledged delegates contest. And you are right that. When you run the numbers, there are not enough of those still to be selected for her to catch up.
Her only hope is to pile up enough popular votes vs Obama to convince some super-delegates to decide that she is more electable against McCain.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 08:18 pm
There's some bad news too: a SurveyUSA poll on Indiana has Clinton leading Obama 52% to 43%.

Survey USA also has a poll on Kentucky in which Clinton leads Obama in an almost 30-point landslide, 58% to 29%, but that isnt (or shouldnt be) a surprise. Unless the Hillary campaign collapses after PA for some reason, both Kentucky and West-Virginia should be routs, with Hillary winning as big as she's done anywhere so far.

Indiana, however, would be a bit of a shock if it went to Hillary big. But that's a long time out still.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 08:41 pm
In the daily tracking polls, meanwhile, Hillary has made up most of the ground she lost over "Tuzlagate" again, and the candidates are back to a tie.

Gallup, which three days ago had Obama up by a record-setting 10 points, now has his lead down to 3 points again. Rasmussen, which had Obama's lead at a max of 6 points four days ago, now has Hillary in the lead by 1.

The two polls actually agree on where Hillary stands: at 45-46%. This seems to be about her "standard" level of support, at least for the last month or so.

They disagree on Obama, though. Gallup has him at 49%: down a little but still at a top level. Aside from two-three days ago, 49-50% has been the top border for Obama in either poll. But Rasmussen has him down to 44% now, which is at the bottom end of his scores - not once since early February has he had less than 43% in the Rasmussen poll.

Here's the main graph - note also how the number of undecideds is ever so gradually sliding to a new low:


http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3815/galluprasmusdems9gj7.png
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 09:13 pm
Looks as if there are still a lot of undecideds marking their spots for a candidate too. The lines are mirrors of each other...looks like the poll participants are still very fickle and flutter from candidate to candidate based on the news of the day. They know they are voting for a Democrat but aren't sure which one.

That's why I'm not ready to "chill out" "relax" or take anything for granted yet. There is still a whole lot of work to be done on the ground in the upcoming primary states.

And don't forget the state conventions of the past primary and caucus states. There are still some major battles going on to influence delegates on that level. The Obama campaign can't afford to not keep an eye on those as they move forward.


B y the way, did anyone save a copy of that spreadsheet that was "leaked" to the press several months ago by the Obama campaign? Which of the upcoming states did it say they expected to win or lose and how accurate have the predictions been so far?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 09:20 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
By the way, did anyone save a copy of that spreadsheet that was "leaked" to the press several months ago by the Obama campaign? Which of the upcoming states did it say they expected to win or lose and how accurate have the predictions been so far?

Here it is (.xls file). (Alternatively, here's a .jpg)

Not bad at all, as predictions go.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 09:22 pm
http://bp1.blogger.com/_qJGvnOCBQcA/R_BaJdtyxHI/AAAAAAAAAKA/m_WpfdaBGtY/s1600/image001.gif

It's lower now - Clinton's lead in super-delegates is down to 30.

My guess is that the drip of s-d's over the last week or so for Obama isn't a coincidence. I think that you'll probably see a few per week, if not more, consistently, between now and PA on the 22nd.

Here's a great PA breakdown -

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/4/2/122110/7678

Which comes to the conclusion -

Best Case Clinton (15% win) = 16-17 delegate pick up

Most likely Case (10% win) = 3 delegate Clinton pick up

Best case Obama (5% Clinton win) = Obama wins 4 delegates.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 09:24 pm
Butrflynet wrote:
Looks as if there are still a lot of undecideds marking their spots for a candidate too. The lines are mirrors of each other...looks like the poll participants are still very fickle and flutter from candidate to candidate based on the news of the day. They know they are voting for a Democrat but aren't sure which one.

That's why I'm not ready to "chill out" "relax" or take anything for granted yet. There is still a whole lot of work to be done on the ground in the upcoming primary states.

And don't forget the state conventions of the past primary and caucus states. There are still some major battles going on to influence delegates on that level. The Obama campaign can't afford to not keep an eye on those as they move forward.


B y the way, did anyone save a copy of that spreadsheet that was "leaked" to the press several months ago by the Obama campaign? Which of the upcoming states did it say they expected to win or lose and how accurate have the predictions been so far?


I have to remind myself all the time that Ras and Gallup don't do callbacks. So when you see the fluctuations up and down, they just aren't as predictive of sentiment moving up and down as they may seem to be - unless there is REAL movement...

Cycloptichorn
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 09:36 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I have to remind myself all the time that Ras and Gallup don't do callbacks. So when you see the fluctuations up and down, they just aren't as predictive of sentiment moving up and down as they may seem to be - unless there is REAL movement...

True. A lot of the smaller up and down, which may seem like reactions to the news of the day, is just statistical noise. Or, to be more precise, is indistuingishable from statistical noise (as in, there may well be some real day-to-day effect of the news, but the size of it is impossible to distinguish from what could also just be random statistical variance.

Pollster.com had a long, but rather arresting reminder of this; a sort of a mindf*ck involving numbers from a fictititious third, internal pollster that turns out to be a random variance generator. Worth a (re-)read whenever you find yourself getting too caught up in the day-to-day movements in the Gallup poll.
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Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 01:37 am
I didn't word it right. I was speaking of the Democratic general public as a whole, not specific people being repeatedly polled.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 03:56 pm
An interesting poll result from CNN:

Quote:
Poll: 76 percent say U.S. ready for black president
From Paul Steinhauser
CNN Deputy Political Director

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The number of Americans who believe the country is ready for a black president is rising, a poll out Thursday suggested.

More than three quarters, 76 percent, of respondents in a CNN/Essence Magazine/Opinion Research Corp. poll said the country is ready to be led by an African-American, up 14 points since December 2006.

Some of the rise can be attributed to the success of Sen. Barack Obama in the Democratic presidential primaries, said Keating Holland, CNN's polling director.

"We're not asking this question in a vacuum. In many cases, respondents must have had Obama in mind when giving their answer, even though he is not mentioned anywhere in the questionnaire," Holland said.

The Senator from Illinois is locked in a battle with Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York for the Democratic presidential nomination. Obama leads Clinton in states won, delegates pledged and in the overall popular vote in the primaries and caucuses held so far.

The poll also indicates more whites than blacks think the country is ready for a black president. Of the white Americans surveyed, 78 percent said the country is ready, as opposed to 69 percent of African-Americans polled. Both numbers are up substantially from December 2006.

"Drawing on their own life experience, blacks are a little more skeptical than whites. But blacks, too, have come around, particularly after the Iowa caucuses demonstrated that Obama could win in an overwhelmingly white electorate," said Bill Schneider, CNN senior political analyst.

"Among blacks, the belief that the country is ready for an African-American president is highest among blacks who share traits with Obama. Optimism about the country's acceptance of a black president is higher among black men than among black women, higher among college-educated blacks than among those with no college degree, and higher among younger blacks than older blacks," Holland said.

The poll also suggested more Americans think the country is ready for a black president than a female president. Sixty-three percent of those surveyed say the country is ready for a female president, 13 points lower than those who say the country is ready for a black president.

"Do Americans see more prejudice against a woman than an African-American? More likely, they see more negative feelings about this woman than about this African-American. Because it's true. More people have an unfavorable opinion of Hillary Clinton than of Barack Obama," Schneider said.

The poll asked whether the country is ready for a black or female president, not whether respondents would vote for a black or female president.

"Few people will acknowledge their own prejudices, but they will answer whether they think the country is ready to elect a black or woman president," Schneider said.

The survey is being released on the eve of the 40th anniversary of the assassination of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. The poll was conducted by telephone from March 26 to April 2, with 2,184 Americans questioned, including 1,014 blacks and 1,001 white.

The survey's margin of error is plus or minus 2 percentage points for the overall sample and plus or minus 3 percentage points for the questions asked just to blacks or whites.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/03/poll.black.president/index.html


That would seem to be good news for the Obama camp on several fronts.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 04:11 pm
Steinhauser wrote:
"We're not asking this question in a vacuum. In many cases, respondents must have had Obama in mind when giving their answer, even though he is not mentioned anywhere in the questionnaire," Holland said.


Ya think?

Definitely good news.
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 04:19 pm
Um, I have problems with the CNN poll cited above. It doesn't look right.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 04:38 pm
sozobe wrote:


Ya think?



Laughing Yeah, I kind of had the same thought...
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 04:39 pm
realjohnboy wrote:
Um, I have problems with the CNN poll cited above. It doesn't look right.


*elbows johnboy* Put yer glasses on son! Razz
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 05:26 pm
Nimh knows quite a bit more than I do about statistics, but the first red flag for me was the claim that the survey had a margin of error or 2-3%. That is very difficult to achieve unless you have a sample size that is quite large relative to the population.
Then I saw that the poll was by CNN/Essence and consisted of 1200 African-American participants and 1000 whites.
Essence is, I believe, a magazine aimed at the black and white working class crowd of females. The poll results are probably not indicative of the general population.

And, of course, folks will always claim to not be prejudiced, but when they actually go into the voting booth...

I have my glasses on, fishin.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 05:53 pm
realjohnboy wrote:
Nimh knows quite a bit more than I do about statistics, but the first red flag for me was the claim that the survey had a margin of error or 2-3%. That is very difficult to achieve unless you have a sample size that is quite large relative to the population.


There are 2 factors to consider. The 1st is the margin of error and the 2nd is the confidence level. The typical confidence level used in political surveys is 95%. To get a 3% margin of error with a 95% confidence level you need 1060 people to respond to the survey. A 2% margin of error at 95% confidence requires 2,400 responses. So they are pretty close. The true margin might be 2.4%-3.3% but I've never seen anyone get that nit-picky in listing results.

The Gallup Daily tracking poll that nimh and others have been updating in this thread is a good example. The daily poll is of 1,200 Democratic voters and the Margin of Error is 3% with a 95% confidence level.

A larger number of people surveyed will give you a lower margin of error and/or a higher confidence level. Usually, when someone contracts out for a survey to be done the inital contract says what the confidence level the desired margin of error will be. The company conducting the poll will then figure out how many responses they need to contact to get that level of accuracy.


Quote:
Then I saw that the poll was by CNN/Essence and consisted of 1200 African-American participants and 1000 whites. Essence is, I believe, a magazine aimed at the black and white working class crowd of females. The poll results are probably not indicative of the general population.


It was a "CNN/Essence Magazine/Opinion Research Corp." poll. That means CNN and Essence Magazine paid for the poll. Opinion Research Corp conducted it. They don't say who was polled (i.e. "registered voters", "CNN Subscribers", "Essence Readers", etc..) in the article (and Opinion Research doesn't have the full report on their WWW site yet to read it...) but there is no indication that it was limited to Essence readers. The article just says it was a poll of "Americans" which usually just means a random pool of people with a U.S. address.

Quote:
I have my glasses on, fishin.


It was a joke... in response to your "It doesn't look right.". Wink
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realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 06:17 pm
fishin wrote:
The article just says it was a poll of "Americans" which usually just means a random pool of people with a U.S. address.


I remember a little bit about my statistics classes, fishin, about MOE and Confidence Levels. Not a whole lot, I concede.
But when the article states that 1200 folks were African-American and 1000 were white, does that not cause you to suspect that this survey has flaws as being representative of "random" Americans?
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