Pro Gun arguments go something like this :

vikorr wrote:

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I doubt that.

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You can doubt it all you like

Thank u.

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- but it is purely from ignorance that you do.
Those living in Australia have no doubt about it.
Gun crime stats back this up also.

I saw some Australian statistics showing a hi rise
of gun crime ( I did not keep them ), the same as in England,
where the police have cooked the books;
( some hi ranking officers CONFESSED to it, after thay retired on pension )
to make gun prohibition look good, with a horrible crime rate.

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Anyway, it is a NATURAL RIGHT to defend yourself.
You are violating your citizens' natural rights of self defense;
that is tyranny
.

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I agree, it's a natural right to be allowed to defend yourself.
I am not violating anyones right to defend themselves,
though I am saying that (in a society with limited guns)
you exercise your right to defend yourself - without a gun.

Surely u jest.
Do the job without the tools; maybe hit him with a pillow ?
or threaten him with a shoe, as Nikita Khrushchev did at the UN ?

That 's like saying that u have a democracy
but the citizens ( or subjects ) cannot have ballots, nor visit the polls.

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More lives are saved this way.

Well, yeah, the lives of
violent criminal predators are much SAFER on-the-job,
because you are in bed with them; your partners.

The helpless victims will live or die,
at the discretion of the criminal predators,
unless the victims have had the wisdom
to violate your anti-gun laws;
( in which case, presumably u will AVENGE the fallen criminals ).

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Apparently, u live in an AUTHORITARIAN society,

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Arguably so - same for anyone in a democracy.

I hope that the victims of your tyranny
will liberate themselves, so as to be able to exercise
their most FUNDAMENTAL right.

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in which the citizens have been terrorized and intimidated
from exercising their natural rights of self defense.

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The majority of people here are happy with the gun laws we have.

Seems unlikely.
I wonder whether u have intimidated them from self expression, too.

Tho, I must admit that possibly u have many people
who are AFRAID to defend themselves; like the OPPOSITE
of Crocodile Dundee.

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The predators must LOVE that.
POUNCE in safety.

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You obviously didn't read the stats that I posted in one of your earlier threads.

The US has a per capita murder rate 5 times that of Australia,
and a per capita firearms murder rate 10 times that of Australia.

What is the rate of successful defenses of life and property
from criminal depredation ?

How many crimes are stopped
by merely SHOWING an available gun ?

We who live in freedom have a lot of that.

There have been crimes in which the victims
have been subjected to many hours
of degradation, humiliation and many abuses, in addition to robbery,
when criminals ( successfully ) sought amusement
and sadistic entertainment; it 'd have been BETTER,
if a victim had counterattacked the predator ( WITH the necessary tools ),
regardless of any law that protects criminals on-the-job,
from the defensive wrath of their victims.

Y do u seek refuge IN HELPLESSNESS from violent attack ?
Instead of in STRENGTH ?

There is virtue in bravery,
and in defending your property and your family.

There is no virtue in cowardice.

David

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So you still haven't been able to find fault with my original post? ...apart from saying 'they aren't my argument'

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I saw some Australian statistics showing a hi rise
of gun crime ( I did not keep them ),

David, I posted the Australian Crime Stats on one of your other threads. Most crimes fell after gun control. The stat you are referring to which rose is rape, which was rising for 20 years before gun control, and the annual percentage rise shows continued a stead crime after gun control. Criminologists attribute this to changing attitudes in society in regards to reporting rape - not to gun control.

Basically, in regards to Australian Stats, the report you read was purposefully deceptive in order to give a favourable impression to the pro gun lobby.

vikorr wrote:

More lives are saved this way.

Code:

Well, yeah, the lives of 

violent criminal predators are much SAFER on-the-job, [/QUOTE]because you are in bed with them; your partners

That seems likely. I'm not worried about the safety of criminals though, I'm worried about the safety of the community. Australian and International Stats paint a picture of a safer country, with less lives lost when less guns exist.

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Seems unlikely.
I wonder whether u have intimidated them from self expression, too.

That rather sounds like desperatio. You know you don't know what you are talking about here.

Like anywhere gun lobbyists exist, they tend to be rather loud. No one here hates them, they just think they are rather ...well, the word would be insulting to you, so I'll leave it out.

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How many crimes are stopped
by merely SHOWING an available gun ?

And how many crimes are committed because of easy access to guns? Have you even bothered to look at the overall crime rates?

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vikor..
I'm a Ausie, used to own a 22 rifle, used to go rabbit shooting, have 3 sons and when they were young I took the 3 of them out into the bush with a great heap of bullets... made em shoot that rifle all day till the bullets ran out.
From that day on they never wanted to own or use a gun of any description the oldest is now 45, the only people I have ever known to be against gun control was in the early days and then it was only those with hand guns for target shooting and the bushies for their rifles.
A great friend of mine was a very frighten sort of guy, he used to keep a revolver beside his bed. One night he was woken by someone opening the door from the balcony. He grabbed his gun and shot at the intruder.... it was his wife who had gone out to get some fresh air as she couldn't sleep... luckily he missed, sold the revolver and got himself a iron poker.

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O-David.
Seems you think Utopia in the USA will be the day every citizen from the age of 8 till 80 has a revolver to protect themselves from each other... sheeeze! if that day comes, then it would be something.. hey??

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Yeah, good job traumatizing your kids and having reckless friends. But somebody who won't be asking for it is going to get crimed successfully that wouldn't otherwise in either case. I know justifiable homicide by firearm occurs on assailants without firearms and don't tell me that some wouldn't try it and succeed even without the gun - so I'd call anyone who doesn't want to treat it as a lesser-of-two-evils scenario naïve. Or do firearms create a culture wherein people assail more often? That probably wouldn't be a fallacy of cause and effect or just an attempt to put a turd in the punchbowl and play to sentiment if a liberal said it. So anyway, say - 10 times the violent crime rate all around if we've got guns. The only examples that come close to backing that up are countries that survived WWII by crapping their dungarees but regardless up to the creation of a perfect world the results are immaterial.

As a pro-gun person I want to make the call, or if I were just talking say let the reality of the situation as technology and socio-economic factors would have it make the call on 90% of what is it now 1/1,000 annually? I must be Hitler reincarnated but if we change it up, melt them all down into park statues assuming we can and assuming none of those folks was defending theyz selfs anyway - what are we doing? Making it so that 1/10,000 poor SOB has the government's boot (or the boot of the good of humanity or whatever the hell else is the motivation) on his chest while he's getting worked over - because he neither has the tool to defend himself nor the conscientious personal decision to do without it. And it's not only him. It's people like me - instead of gambling that I'm mean enough to handle my stuff and keeping the $400 instead of buying a gun - I'd just be just taking crap - letting the G take care of me and hoping they do a good job. It would be a lot more people for that reason except solving your own problems is more of a hobby, often treated as an indulgence, these days.

Or did we give 1/10,000 the best chance he could've had by taking the guns - the chance he'd have wanted? It's not what at least 30% of America, right now, not counting people like me want. I know - it might not be the same demographic - but this is the USA we're in it together. So then you've got at least 3/100,000 set up by their own government for the dregs of humanity to prey on instead of 100 having the chance they made for themselves or didn't with every tool conceivable to even out the fight at their disposal. Three who'd have done for themselves get turned over to the monsters with bows on their heads so 97 can take it easy. That's not my America. That defeats the purpose of having a country entirely.

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anton bonnier wrote:

vikor..
I'm a Ausie, used to own a 22 rifle, used to go rabbit shooting, have 3 sons and when they were young I took the 3 of them out into the bush with a great heap of bullets... made em shoot that rifle all day till the bullets ran out.
From that day on they never wanted to own or use a gun of any description the oldest is now 45, the only people I have ever known to be against gun control was in the early days and then it was only those with hand guns for target shooting and the bushies for their rifles.
A great friend of mine was a very frighten sort of guy, he used to keep a revolver beside his bed. One night he was woken by someone opening the door from the balcony. He grabbed his gun and shot at the intruder.... it was his wife who had gone out to get some fresh air as she couldn't sleep... luckily he missed, sold the revolver and got himself a iron poker.

Always know your target and beyond.

So simple it's stupid.

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anton bonnier wrote:

O-David.

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Seems you think Utopia in the USA

I oppose Utopia.
It is socialist.
I reject collectivism.
I embrace individualism and libertarianism.

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will be the day every citizen from the age of 8 till 80 has a revolver
to protect themselves from each other...

Yes.
The same as every citizen shud have health insurance.
Personal firearms, within quick reach are health and property insurance.

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sheeeze! if that day comes, then it would be something.. hey??

That wud be going back to the way it was from Colonial times
until around the first third of the 1900s, before socialist gun control laws,
when everyone prepared to defend himself however he chose.
( By this I mean to include both guns and swords. )

David

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cjhsa wrote:

anton bonnier wrote:
vikor..
I'm a Ausie, used to own a 22 rifle, used to go rabbit shooting, have 3 sons and when they were young I took the 3 of them out into the bush with a great heap of bullets... made em shoot that rifle all day till the bullets ran out.
From that day on they never wanted to own or use a gun of any description the oldest is now 45, the only people I have ever known to be against gun control was in the early days and then it was only those with hand guns for target shooting and the bushies for their rifles.
A great friend of mine was a very frighten sort of guy, he used to keep a revolver beside his bed. One night he was woken by someone opening the door from the balcony. He grabbed his gun and shot at the intruder.... it was his wife who had gone out to get some fresh air as she couldn't sleep... luckily he missed, sold the revolver and got himself a iron poker.

Always know your target and beyond.

So simple it's stupid.

That's the problem. Most would not take time to identify. Fear is a terrible thing and fear with a gun in your hand is stupid beyond stupidity.

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anton bonnier wrote:

vikor..

Quote:
I'm a Ausie, used to own a 22 rifle, used to go rabbit shooting,
have 3 sons and when they were young I took the 3 of them out
into the bush with a great heap of bullets...
made em shoot that rifle all day till the bullets ran out.

Y did u do that ?
What was your goal ?

Did your boys ASK u the reason for this ?

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From that day on they never wanted to own or use a gun of any description

I take it that u are proud of your sons for being DEFENSELESS ??
Will u be MORE proud of them if they get WEAKER, and weaker ??

Do u see value in helplessness ?

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A great friend of mine was a very frighten sort of guy, he used to keep a revolver beside his bed.
One night he was woken by someone opening the door from the balcony.
He grabbed his gun and shot at the intruder.... it was his wife who had gone out
to get some fresh air as she couldn't sleep... luckily he missed,
sold the revolver and got himself a iron poker.

A gun is an instrument,
to get a job done ( defense of your life or property ),
the same as a car is an instrument ( for transportation ).

Your story is like saying
that if someone owned a car and used it wrongly, to drive to a bad place,
where he had bad luck, the blame is on the car,
not the driver, and he shud have sold it and bought a donkey, ( or an iron poker ? )
so that he can only get there again, more slowly, or not at all.

David

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Intrepid wrote:

cjhsa wrote:
anton bonnier wrote:
vikor..
I'm a Ausie, used to own a 22 rifle, used to go rabbit shooting, have 3 sons and when they were young I took the 3 of them out into the bush with a great heap of bullets... made em shoot that rifle all day till the bullets ran out.
From that day on they never wanted to own or use a gun of any description the oldest is now 45, the only people I have ever known to be against gun control was in the early days and then it was only those with hand guns for target shooting and the bushies for their rifles.
A great friend of mine was a very frighten sort of guy, he used to keep a revolver beside his bed. One night he was woken by someone opening the door from the balcony. He grabbed his gun and shot at the intruder.... it was his wife who had gone out to get some fresh air as she couldn't sleep... luckily he missed, sold the revolver and got himself a iron poker.

Always know your target and beyond.

So simple it's stupid.

That's the problem. Most would not take time to identify. Fear is a terrible thing and fear with a gun in your hand is stupid beyond stupidity.

U know this from experience ?

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vikorr wrote:

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So you still haven't been able to find fault with my original post?
...apart from saying 'they aren't my argument'

What occurs to me at the moment,
without re-reading your original post,
is that is assumes propositions inconsistent with known fact,
to wit:
the known fact that
that anyone who chooses to commit a crime, including murder,
will be able to equip himself according to his taste
either by purchasing the desired equipment on the black market,
or by making it himself.

Your post assumes that gun control will stop him,
equally as well as everyone is stopped from getting any marijuana now,
or getting any alcohol in the 1920s; its a JOKE.

Repressionists want to remove guns, saying they are sometimes used to facilitate crime.
They fail to understand that the actual weapon is the HUMAN MIND,
whose cleverness has not been controlled nor restrained (even in prison).
This mind expresses itself perseveringly, into the manifestation of its felt needs or desires,
and it has FOREVER to do the job that it selects (e.g., the art of the gunsmith/merchant).
Prohibition is futile.

I 'll get back to u later, Vik,
when I have more time.

David

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Quote:
will be the day every citizen from the age of 8 till 80 has a revolver
to protect themselves from each other...

Yes.
The same as every citizen should have health insurance.
Personal firearms, within quick reach are health and property insurance.

Anton says...
Might I add... when your 8-80 year olds all have "hand guns" then I would advise you to get a machine gun.. better protection for your health and property.
Then when all 8-80 year olds have machine guns then I would advise you to get a armoured tank.
Then when all the 8-80 year olds have tanks I would advise you to dig a large bunker... then when?????

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O david.
You said..Quote.. Y did u do that ?
What was your goal ?

Anton says... like any sensible parent I wanted to let my boys know the danger and power of a rifle.. also to let them understand that there is no great thrill in making big banging noises and watching tin cans fly off with holes in them, thus by filling their heads with the excitment of it all would last them all their lives.

O David said...did your boys ASK u the reason for this ?

Anton says...
Since when would a adult male, expect his young sons, who have a normal amount of inteligence to query why he gave them that lesson???
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Anton had said Quote..From that day on they never wanted to own or use a gun of any description

O David said quote.. I take it that u are proud of your sons for being DEFENSELESS ??
Will u be MORE proud of them if they get WEAKER, and weaker ??

Do u see value in helplessness ?

Antons reply... My sons are not defenceless nor weak, nor are they helpless BUT if there were a large popukation of people of your mindset here in Australia... they would say the same as you, thank all the Gods out there ...There is'nt.

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the known fact that
that anyone who chooses to commit a crime, including murder,
will be able to equip himself according to his taste
either by purchasing the desired equipment on the black market,
or by making it himself.

That's a very selective use of ?'facts'.

You appear to be talking purely about criminals. Many murders are carried out by people without prior criminal convictions - people who would have no idea how to buy something on the black market.

Obtaining or making a firearm also takes time and effort - most murders are done out of anger (ie they are unplanned), not in cold blood. Going to the effort of buying a weapon of the black market is called planning...the longer it takes, the more cold blooded it is.

As most are done in 'warm blood',...The longer it takes to obtain a weapon, the greater the chance their anger will cool and they will reconsider.

This is the idea behind cooling off periods.

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Your post assumes that gun control will stop him,

Is this what you think I said? I said the less guns there are, the less easy access people have to guns, the less gun violence there is, and the less gun murders there are.

Whether or not it stops one criminal or not is irrelevant to me - what is relevant is that it stops a greater percentage of criminals from using guns, thereby saving more lives.

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Repressionists want to remove guns, saying they are sometimes used to facilitate crime.

Don't forget they also magnify the seriousness of the crime, and make it much easier to kill other people.

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They fail to understand that the actual weapon is the HUMAN MIND,

A firearms murder takes BOTH a person AND a firearm (as well as the victim).

This is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be stated. Are Pro Gun lobbyists, who see the increased death rates caused by peoples increased access to guns, able to see this? Do they just not care that their desire for everyone to have free access to guns leads to higher death rates?

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anton bonnier wrote:

Quote:
will be the day every citizen from the age of 8 till 80 has a revolver
to protect themselves from each other...

Yes.
The same as every citizen should have health insurance.
Personal firearms, within quick reach are health and property insurance.

Anton says...
Might I add... when your 8-80 year olds all have "hand guns" then I would advise you to get a machine gun.. better protection for your health and property.
Then when all 8-80 year olds have machine guns then I would advise you to get a armoured tank.
Then when all the 8-80 year olds have tanks I would advise you to dig a large bunker... then when?????

I do not choose to accept your advice.

The handguns will be enuf;
MAYBE a compact SMG, tho I doubt it;
a bit awkward n troublesome to carry around.

An SMG 'd be a good home defense weapon.
David

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Pro Gun arguments go something like this :

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