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Leahy: Bush Not Involved in Firings

 
 
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 02:06 pm
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h05J8C7SJYrdPJ6KtEFZgZOd0wCgD8T7OM6O0


Quote:


So, Leahy finally admits that Bush was NOT involved in the US Attorney firings.


Quote:


So, if Bush didnt know, will the left on here admit that they were wrong?
Somehow I dont think so.

As for the others using the defense of executive priveledge, I dont think they should be able to use it.

But, many on here were adamant that Bush KNEW about the firings.
Turns out he didnt.

So since Leahy himself says Bush didnt know, will you on the left that said Bush DID know finally admit you were wrong?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 1,058 • Replies: 23
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 02:31 pm
Brain not keeping up with keyboard. Big reading and thinking problems here, mm. Read it again.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 02:34 pm
blatham wrote:
Brain not keeping up with keyboard. Big reading and thinking problems here, mm. Read it again.


OK, tell me what I got wrong!!!

Leahy DID say Bush was not involved, and I dont think that the others should be able to use "executive priveledge" to protect themselves.

So, what did I get wrong, especially since I posted a link to the article so none of you can say I'm not telling the truth.

Also, since its an AP story, you cant accuse me of using a "biased" news source.

So I ask again...what part did I get wrong?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 02:46 pm
You got, to be exact, everything wrong.

1) you claim that "many on here were adamant that Bush KNEW about the firings." I suspect you will not be able to find even one such claim. "Many"...not a chance. Who is going to claim that they 'know' what they cannot know? Of course, it is an entirely reasonable assumption that Bush was well aware of the firings and why they happened but it is also possible that specifics didn't land on his desk.

2) which is all quite irrelevant in terms of responsibility anyway. Bush is responsible for what his senior staff do Particularly where more than a single one of them are engaged in a co-ordinated effort to carry through with a policy.

3) Leahy cannot "know' that Bush was unappraised of this matter. Leahy making such a statement doesn't provide you with any greater level of truth or fact than had Leahy said, "Soup is my favorite dish".

4) As the piece indicates, Leahy has advanced this "admission" of a truth he cannot possibly know to be true in order to remove a potential legal obstacle to forcing the testimony of several witnesses.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 02:54 pm
blatham wrote:
You got, to be exact, everything wrong.

1) you claim that "many on here were adamant that Bush KNEW about the firings." I suspect you will not be able to find even one such claim. "Many"...not a chance. Who is going to claim that they 'know' what they cannot know? Of course, it is an entirely reasonable assumption that Bush was well aware of the firings and why they happened but it is also possible that specifics didn't land on his desk.

It probably wont be very difficult to find some quotes from people on here who were admanat that Bush knew about the firings.
I will see what I can find.



2) which is all quite irrelevant in terms of responsibility anyway. Bush is responsible for what his senior staff do Particularly where more than a single one of them are engaged in a co-ordinated effort to carry through with a policy.

I 100% agree, he is responsible for what his staff does.
I have never said otherwise.



3) Leahy cannot "know' that Bush was unappraised of this matter. Leahy making such a statement doesn't provide you with any greater level of truth or fact than had Leahy said, "Soup is my favorite dish".

So, you are holding me accountable for what Leahy said?
I posted the link, I highlighted a couple of his quotes.
Are you saying that its my problem that you think he misspoke?



4) As the piece indicates, Leahy has advanced this "admission" of a truth he cannot possibly know to be true in order to remove a potential legal obstacle to forcing the testimony of several witnesses.

Again, he made the statement, I didnt.
I just quoted him AND posted the link to the AP story.
Just because you dont like what he said, that isnt my problem.
But, you still havent shown how I got it wrong.
Maybe Leahy did, and if he did you should take it up with him, not me.


0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 03:15 pm
Please stop being such a purposeful dunce, MM.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 03:21 pm
blatham wrote:
Please stop being such a purposeful dunce, MM.


You cant defend your statements, and I'm the dunce?

You said, and I quote...You got, to be exact, everything wrong.

Yet, when I challenge you to show me how, you call me a dunce.
You start with the immediate insults when you get challenged.

Why is that?

And I will say it again, show me what I got wrong, especially since I posted a link to the article and quoted Leahy directly.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 03:37 pm
Can Leahy 'know' that Bush was unaware of these things?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 03:43 pm
blatham wrote:
Can Leahy 'know' that Bush was unaware of these things?


Probably not, but that doesnt change the fact about what Leahy said.

He said that Bush wasnt involved, and if you know about something, especially if that something is a criminal act, you are involved, if only as an accessory.

Again, you need to take it up with Leahy, he made the comment, I didnt.
So, again I ask...how did I get it wrong?

Upon thinking about it, I think I know whats bothering you.

Its not that you think I got it wrong, its that now you cant blame Bush for something, and that upsets you.
Well, dont let it upset you, it wont be long before you find something else to bllame him for.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 03:54 pm
Quote:
So, Leahy finally admits that Bush was NOT involved in the US Attorney firings.

But, many on here were adamant that Bush KNEW about the firings.
Turns out he didnt.

So since Leahy himself says Bush didnt know,


You claim Bush didn't know... "Turns out he didn't". Your words. You cannot make this claim.

You seem to believe that Leahy's statement gives you grounds to say you also 'know' bush wasn't involved. You cannot make that further claim either.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 04:08 pm
You need to think about this stuff more clearly, mm.

It doesn't matter what Leahy says. You, nor anyone else, is further along in your 'knowledge' regarding what Bush knew or was involved in.

More importantly, you need to re-read that piece and understand why Leahy has made this statement. And that is to allow him to continue with investigation through bypass of the 'executive priviledge' legal impediment.

To get past that, Leahy MUST say what he has said, even if, logically, he has no grounds on which to make that truth claim.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 04:18 pm
Attorney Generals serve at the pleasure of the President.

The argument has been made repeatedly that Bush can fire the AGs whenever he wants to...

Now we find out Bush did NOT even know they were being fired.

And somehow this makes their firing OK?

Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 04:20 pm
parados wrote:
Attorney Generals serve at the pleasure of the President.

The argument has been made repeatedly that Bush can fire the AGs whenever he wants to...

Now we find out Bush did NOT even know they were being fired.

And somehow this makes their firing OK?

Rolling Eyes


Has anyone made that claim, or are you just wishing?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 04:25 pm
parados wrote:
Attorney Generals serve at the pleasure of the President.

The argument has been made repeatedly that Bush can fire the AGs whenever he wants to...

Now we find out Bush did NOT even know they were being fired.

And somehow this makes their firing OK?

Rolling Eyes


No, we don't KNOW that. We now KNOW nothing more than what we knew before.

This is a legal maneuver. On top of that, there are PR and spin things going on.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 04:28 pm
blatham wrote:
You need to think about this stuff more clearly, mm.

It doesn't matter what Leahy says. You, nor anyone else, is further along in your 'knowledge' regarding what Bush knew or was involved in.

More importantly, you need to re-read that piece and understand why Leahy has made this statement. And that is to allow him to continue with investigation through bypass of the 'executive priviledge' legal impediment.

To get past that, Leahy MUST say what he has said, even if, logically, he has no grounds on which to make that truth claim.


Lets examine this from another angle.

If you know a bank robbery is being planned, and you do nothing to warn the police, then legally you ARE involved and can be tried as an accessory.
Even if you did not participate.

Knowing that,it is a logical assumption to say that Bush didnt know about it.
Am I assuming facts not in evidence?
Yes I am and I admit that.
However, it is a logical assumption based on what Leahy said.

Also, I do NOT think that any of the people involved should be allowed "executive priveledge" as a defense or as a way to get around testifying.

How do you know that Leahy doesnt believe what he saying?
I understand he is saying it to bypass the priveledge claim, but it is also quite possible that he really does think Bush wasnt involved.

You dont "know", just as I dont "know".
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 04:45 pm
Quote:
If you know a bank robbery is being planned, and you do nothing to warn the police, then legally you ARE involved and can be tried as an accessory.
Even if you did not participate.

Knowing that,it is a logical assumption to say that Bush didnt know about it.
Am I assuming facts not in evidence?
Yes I am and I admit that.
However, it is a logical assumption based on what Leahy said.


No, it isn't. Leahy has no means (or only the barest means) presently to establlish what Bush knew or was involved in because the principals involved refuse to testify, using the executive priviledge dodge. All you can take away here is that Leahy presently has inadequate evidence to say or prove that Bush knew. But Bush's knowledge/involvement isn't even relevant unless one wants to indict Bush and only Bush. There are other principals involved here who may well be guilty of crimes (they also may not be guilty) but investigation of them is effectively stopped because of the EP dodge.

Quote:
Also, I do NOT think that any of the people involved should be allowed "executive priveledge" as a defense or as a way to get around testifying.

How do you know that Leahy doesnt believe what he saying?
I understand he is saying it to bypass the priveledge claim, but it is also quite possible that he really does think Bush wasnt involved.

You dont "know", just as I dont "know".


I don't know that Leahy doesn't believe what he is saying. He might. But he has insufficient information to make such a claim to knowledge regardless of what he believes.

More to the point however is the legal path that his statement opens up hopefully allowing investigators to force these principals to testify under oath. Leahy isn't, you'll notice, stopping here.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 04:53 pm
One who knows not
and
knows not that
he knows not is a fool.
so shun him.
One who knows and knows not
that he knows is sleeping.
Wake him

One who knows and knows that he knows is a perfer man.
Follow him
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 04:57 pm
Quote:
One who knows and knows that he knows is a perfer man.
Follow him


Nothing personal, but that's really what we call bullshit.

The last person you want to be following is someone incapable of facing up to how little he knows.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 04:57 pm
Re: Leahy: Bush Not Involved in Firings
It is interesting how we tend to focus on the parts that either interest us, or support our positions.

I'd pick

Quote:


as the interesting part.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 05:02 pm
Yuppers.
0 Replies
 
 

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