1
   

What would this be?

 
 
flaja
 
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2007 06:28 pm
Government:
1. The government levies heavy taxes.
2. The government prints money whenever necessary to avoid deficit spending or borrowing.
3. The government subsidizes things like factory construction and maintenance.
4. The government determines what farms will produce.
5. The government determines the prices at which farmers may sell what they produces (the prices are automatically set above what the market would otherwise dictate so farmers have a certain amount of guaranteed income).
6. The government determines what goods and services businesses can produce, how much they will produce and the price at which the produced goods and services will be sold.
7. The government, at the direction of business owners, determines the wages and salaries of all employees.
8. The government provides health insurance, unemployment insurance, disability insurance and a retirement pension to employees.
9. The government operates an organization that provides low-cost recreational and cultural activities- things like luxury cruise vacations for less than 2 weeks' pay.
10. The government conscripts labor for public works projects in order to relieve massive, chronic or long-term unemployment.

Farmers:
1. Family farms may not be mortgaged or seized by creditors.
2. Family farms may not be sold.
3. Family farms must be inherited by the farmer's oldest son or the nearest male relative and the heir is responsible for providing a living for the deceased farmer's surviving spouse and minor children.

Business owners:
1. All corporations worth less than $500,000 must be sold to a larger corporation or closed.
2. No new corporation worth less than $2.8 million may be established.
3. No more than 6% of a corporation's profits may be distributed as dividends. The remaining 94% must be either re-invested in the corporation or be used to purchase government bonds (which the government is not obligated to ever pay back).
4. Employers may demand greater output from employees without increasing wages or benefits.
5. Large business must either form cartels or join already existing cartels pertaining to whatever industry the business is associated with.
6. No business may fire an employee or lay off an employee without the government's permission.

Labor:
1. Labor unions are illegal.
2. Employees may not strike.
3. No employee may leave his employer without the employer's permission.
4. An employee must pay anywhere from 15 to 35 per cent of his pay in taxes and charitable donations mandated by the government.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 631 • Replies: 18
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2007 06:29 pm
What would this be?

Quote:

3. Family farms must be inherited by the farmer's oldest son or the nearest male relative and the heir is responsible for providing a living for the deceased farmer's surviving spouse and minor children.


Sexist, to say the least.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Nov, 2007 06:54 pm
flaga wrote-

Quote:
. An employee must pay anywhere from 15 to 35 per cent of his pay in taxes and charitable donations mandated by the government.


The employee doesn't get pay. It's a gift from the government as you have just proved. The 15 to 35 % is to enable the gifts to continue at a growth rate of about about 3%. Not forgetting the amusement aspect of employment of course.

If you're not happy about that perhaps you should consider relocating.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 09:47 am
Re: What would this be?
flaja wrote:
Government:
2. The government prints money whenever necessary to avoid deficit spending or borrowing.
3. The government subsidizes things like factory construction and maintenance.
4. The government determines what farms will produce.
5. The government determines the prices at which farmers may sell what they produces [..].
6. The government determines what goods and services businesses can produce, how much they will produce and the price at which the produced goods and services will be sold.
7. The government, at the direction of business owners, determines the wages and salaries of all employees.
9. The government operates an organization that provides low-cost recreational and cultural activities [..]
10. The government conscripts labor for public works projects in order to relieve massive, chronic or long-term unemployment.

Business owners:
4. Employers may demand greater output from employees without increasing wages or benefits.
5. Large business must either form cartels or join already existing cartels pertaining to whatever industry the business is associated with.
6. No business may fire an employee or lay off an employee without the government's permission.

Labor:
1. Labor unions are illegal.
2. Employees may not strike.
3. No employee may leave his employer without the employer's permission.


Re all of the above -- communism? :wink:
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 05:34 pm
Re: What would this be?
nimh wrote:
Re all of the above -- communism? :wink:


Nope. What I gave here is a summary of the German economy under National Socialism as outlined by William Shirer in his book, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, with dollar amounts updated to account for inflation. I've posted this on several other boards and most of the time other posters think this is plan is socialism or communism. Some have even asked which Democrat presidential candidate this plan belongs to.

Actually, it is not communism in the Marxian sense since it has elements that couldn't exist according to the Communist Manifesto. It is Soviet-style socialism with a veneer of private property.

The next time any liberal tries to associate conservatives with Nazis, point them to this thread.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 05:39 pm
Nazism is conservative economics. quite the opposite of socialism/communism in theory. If, on the other hand, you are talking about USSR/China/Cuba that's another topic altogether.
0 Replies
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 05:43 pm
flaja wrote:
The next time any liberal tries to associate conservatives with Nazis, point them to this thread.


I don't see how the Nazi's ECONOMIC policies had anything to do with the holocaust or World War II. By your logic, the fact that Hitler had a mustache must mean that Tom Selleck is an antisemite.

All this does is explain how the German goverment was so efficent and economically competent that it managed to recover from one of it's worst recession this century into a superpower capable of threatening the entire planet.

P.S: Good god, did you even read more than half of what you posted. It seriously reads like a conservative's wet dream. I'm a economic conservative and I heartily endorse some of Hitler's economic philosophy but even I'm not crazy enough to go this far to the right...

flaja wrote:

1. Labor unions are illegal.
2. Employees may not strike.
3. No employee may leave his employer without the employer's permission.
4. An employee must pay anywhere from 15 to 35 per cent of his pay in taxes and charitable donations mandated by the government
7. The government, at the direction of business owners, determines the wages and salaries of all employees.
1. All corporations worth less than $500,000 must be sold to a larger corporation or closed.
3. No more than 6% of a corporation's profits may be distributed as dividends. The remaining 94% must be either re-invested in the corporation or be used to purchase government bonds (which the government is not obligated to ever pay back).
4. Employers may demand greater output from employees without increasing wages or benefits.
5. Large business must either form cartels or join already existing cartels pertaining to whatever industry the business is associated with.


flaja wrote:
What would this be?


This would be you being wrong on so many different counts that it's downright hilarious. Razz
0 Replies
 
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 06:20 pm
Re: What would this be?
flaja wrote:
inflation. I've posted this on several other boards and most of the time other posters think this is plan is socialism or communism. Some have even asked which Democrat presidential candidate this plan belongs to.


That just proves that most people are totally clueless about and socialism, communism. The last entry proves conservatives are the most ignorant of all.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 06:35 pm
Re: What would this be?
This one gave it away for me along with the private ownership.
Quote:
1. Labor unions are illegal.



I did find these 2 a little contradictory -

flaja wrote:

1. The government levies heavy taxes.

4. An employee must pay anywhere from 15 to 35 per cent of his pay in taxes and charitable donations mandated by the government.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 06:37 pm
Re: What would this be?
flaja wrote:
Nope. What I gave here is a summary of the German economy under National Socialism as outlined by William Shirer in his book, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, with dollar amounts updated to account for inflation. I've posted this on several other boards and most of the time other posters think this is plan is socialism or communism. Some have even asked which Democrat presidential candidate this plan belongs to.

Actually, it is not communism in the Marxian sense since it has elements that couldn't exist according to the Communist Manifesto. It is Soviet-style socialism with a veneer of private property.

The next time any liberal tries to associate conservatives with Nazis, point them to this thread.

That post made total sense until the last sentence.

Yes, I'm not surprised that many people associated much of the description with communism - particularly, as you point out, Soviet communism. Soviet communism and Nazism had a lot in common, in their manichean, authoritarian world view, ruthless methods, and even social and economic policies.

In many ways, the ideologies of the far right and far left "touch" each other in general - instead of an axis from left to right, the nature of political ideology is in some ways more like a circle.

Then comes the last sentence and you clunk overboard. Because US liberals and Democrats have almost nothing in common with Soviet communism, and the comparison of communism with fascism thus also says nothing about them. This is quickly sussed out by confirming that your typical US liberal will strongly disagree with the majority of the points that your description lays out.

If the scale of ideologies is more like a circle than like an axis, with communism and fascism on many points "meeting" each other on one side of the circle, then your average US liberal and moderate will be at the exact opposite point.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 06:43 pm
Re: What would this be?
parados wrote:
This one gave it away for me along with the private ownership.
Quote:
1. Labor unions are illegal.

Well, the communists werent too keen on labour unions either.. not once they were in power, anyhow.

There were state-sanctioned unions, barely worth the name as they were run purely as tools to instill and enforce discipline; but any attempt to actually set up an independent union or worker self-representation invited a harsher state clampdown than even the most contrary intellectual got to face.

Which is another example of how US liberals are nothing like communists.. quick, think of a liberal President who clamped down on unions!
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:36 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Nazism is conservative economics. quite the opposite of socialism/communism in theory. If, on the other hand, you are talking about USSR/China/Cuba that's another topic altogether.


You've obviously not read what I posted. Conservatives would balk in a heartbeat about the restrictions the Nazis placed on business and industry- let alone private property.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:41 pm
Centroles wrote:
I don't see how the Nazi's ECONOMIC policies had anything to do with the holocaust or World War II.


Where did I say they did?

Quote:
All this does is explain how the German goverment was so efficent and economically competent that it managed to recover from one of it's worst recession this century into a superpower capable of threatening the entire planet.


German efficiency is a myth. Hitler intentionally created a state within a state. Just about every part of the government bureaucracy in Nazi Germany had a Nazi Party counterpart. Hitler wanted it this way so his underlings would be constantly feuding with each other and thus couldn't combine against his own power.

Quote:
P.S: Good god, did you even read more than half of what you posted. It seriously reads like a conservative's wet dream.


Which parts?

Quote:
This would be you being wrong on so many different counts that it's downright hilarious. Razz


Would you care to elaborate?
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:42 pm
Re: What would this be?
Green Witch wrote:
The last entry proves conservatives are the most ignorant of all.


How so?
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:47 pm
Re: What would this be?
parados wrote:
I did find these 2 a little contradictory -


Thus was Nazi Germany.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:57 pm
Re: What would this be?
nimh wrote:
flaja wrote:
Nope. What I gave here is a summary of the German economy under National Socialism as outlined by William Shirer in his book, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, with dollar amounts updated to account for inflation. I've posted this on several other boards and most of the time other posters think this is plan is socialism or communism. Some have even asked which Democrat presidential candidate this plan belongs to.

Actually, it is not communism in the Marxian sense since it has elements that couldn't exist according to the Communist Manifesto. It is Soviet-style socialism with a veneer of private property.

The next time any liberal tries to associate conservatives with Nazis, point them to this thread.

That post made total sense until the last sentence.

Yes, I'm not surprised that many people associated much of the description with communism - particularly, as you point out, Soviet communism. Soviet communism and Nazism had a lot in common, in their manichean, authoritarian world view, ruthless methods, and even social and economic policies.

In many ways, the ideologies of the far right and far left "touch" each other in general - instead of an axis from left to right, the nature of political ideology is in some ways more like a circle.

Then comes the last sentence and you clunk overboard. Because US liberals and Democrats have almost nothing in common with Soviet communism, and the comparison of communism with fascism thus also says nothing about them. This is quickly sussed out by confirming that your typical US liberal will strongly disagree with the majority of the points that your description lays out.

If the scale of ideologies is more like a circle than like an axis, with communism and fascism on many points "meeting" each other on one side of the circle, then your average US liberal and moderate will be at the exact opposite point.


I see the political spectrum as a straight line. No government is the extreme right position while authoritarianism is on the far left. Libertarianism would be the far right position while socialism would be the far left. In this regard communism would share the right position with the libertarians since according to the Communist Manifesto government would not exist because it would not be needed.

In economic terms Socialism would be a little further left than National Socialism would be, but neither would be right of center.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 08:03 pm
Re: What would this be?
nimh wrote:
Which is another example of how US liberals are nothing like communists.. quick, think of a liberal President who clamped down on unions!


Bear in mind that I am not saying that liberals are communists since depending on the issue communists may be on the left or the right. American liberals are like socialists, but socialism and communism are not the same thing.

Didn't Truman seize the steel mills when the unions went on strike during the Korean War?
0 Replies
 
Centroles
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 09:04 pm
No no no. Ideology isn't a circle.

It's this... http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

You can see clearly that where conservatives and liberals interect is where fasicism falls.
0 Replies
 
flaja
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 09:48 pm
Centroles wrote:
No no no. Ideology isn't a circle.

It's this... http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

You can see clearly that where conservatives and liberals interect is where fasicism falls.


I don't buy into this political compass idea. You are either for individual freedom or you are against it to some extent or another. The political spectrum starts on the extreme right with libertarianism- individual liberty is maximized so each individual can act in his own self interest without any restraints whatsoever. A little to the left (but still right of center) you have conservatives- people who believe in individual liberty, but who realize that individuals will invariably infringe on the rights of others when left to their own devices, meaning that government is necessary. The further left you go the less individual liberty is allowed and the more power the government has. You pass through liberalism and eventually come to the extreme left position which is authoritarian/totalitarian government. There is no such thing as authoritarian left and authoritarian right.

The same goes for economic issues, i.e., private property. The extreme right is libertarianism, where all property is privately owned. The conservative position allows for public property whenever it is needed to achieve some common benefit for the members of society. The further left you go the less private property and the more public property you have until you reach socialism, where all property is public property. Note: under communism property is not owned either by individuals or by society, i.e., public property which is owned by the government.
0 Replies
 
 

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