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Oz election thread #3 - Rudd's Labour

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 01:09 am
Today at work, a very nice, intelligent (trust me, I know him) Turkish-Australian Muslim student asked me why I thought Australia was involved in Afghanistan ... particularly since everyone seemed to agree that our involvement in Iraq had been a terrible mistake ...

I'm afraid that I just gave him a list of the stated "official reasons" for our involvement. But had to admit that the reasons were no longer quite clear to me. Besides, discussing "political issues" with students is not exactly encouraged in our schools! But I felt quite challenged by his question.

What reason would you give him? If you could speak openly? Particularly those of you who support Australia's involvement in Afghanistan.

dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 02:15 am
@msolga,
Because Al Quaeda sucks?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 02:38 am
@dlowan,
I don't think that would do the trick, Deb. Wink
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Aug, 2009 07:08 am
@msolga,
The Taliban REALLY suck.



Yes, yes, I know....no western nation that has decided to invade Afghanistan has ever achieved what it wanted, and has fallen into a long bloody morass which seems to leave things worse than ever.


Sigh.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 05:56 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
The Taliban REALLY suck.


He absolutely agrees with you on that, Deb. I did say he was intelligent! Smile

0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 06:07 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
Yes, yes, I know....no western nation that has decided to invade Afghanistan has ever achieved what it wanted, and has fallen into a long bloody morass which seems to leave things worse than ever.


Sigh.


True.
And the accepted wisdom from moderate Australian Muslims (the ones I speak to, anyway) is neither the Taliban/Al Quaeda nor the invading western countries are making life any better (quite the opposite, in fact) for ordinary Muslims living in countries like Iraq or Afghanistan. Some of whom these Muslim Australians are related to, or else feel a strong kinship with, because of shared religious/cultural connections. It is hard for them sometimes to know where they stand, how to respond, in the circumstances.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 06:26 pm
And here's a little homage to Godwin, from this morning's paper:

http://images.theage.com.au/2009/08/07/669876/svOPED_AUG8-420x0.jpg
0 Replies
 
Adanac
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 03:01 pm
If I was an Australian, I would be asking this student why is he living in Australia. What is the reason why he left his own country?
It seemed to me that the US, Britain and others were striking at the heart of terrorism, but the Muslim community see it as as a strike on Islam.
I see you Aussies have foiled a plot by Somalian terrorists. What is their beef with you ? Or is is just a religious payback for Afghanistan /Iraq ?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 04:03 pm
@Adanac,
He's in Australia because he's an Australian citizen, Adanac. He was born here. Either 2nd or 3rd generation Australian, I'm not certain. As an Australian he has every right to question our country's military involvements, just like the rest of us. Turkish-Australians are very established in this country & many are of "secular" persuasion. There is no record of any association with any "terrorist activities" that I'm aware of within the Turkish-Australian community.
If you read my posts above you would know that he does not support the activities of the Taliban or Al Quaeda. He was simply asking why I thought we (Australia) are involved in Afghanistan & were involved in Iraq. These are questions I ask myself. Many Australians vehemently opposed our country's involvement in Iraq. Some of them now believe that our involvement in Afghanistan is a different & a "right" involvement. But I have heard few detailed reasons for why they hold this view. It could be anything from: We should have been there in the first place, rather than Iraq. We are there to ensure that democratic elections can be safely held. We are there to help free Afghani women from oppression. Something to do with the opium/heroin trade. We are they because the US is there & because we are an ally of the US. I tend to believe it's the last reason.
0 Replies
 
Adanac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 12:08 pm
After reading this article I can understand why only the Taliban would support the Taliban.

http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm

Does the slightest hint of female sexuality turn them into uncontrollable sex-crazed monsters ?
Don't they trust themselves to behave like normal human beings ?
I guess it is their country and outsiders are interfering,
but you got to feel sorry for the female population.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 02:18 am
@Adanac,
Adanc

You don't have to persuade me at all about the hideous treatment of Afghan women under the Taliban. I know, I know ... I am in complete sympathy with their plight. I honestly don't know what the answer to their predicament is. I doubt that foreign invasion nor a perpetuation of rule by war lords is going to help matters much in the short term. The more I read about their prospects,the more despairing I feel.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 02:32 am
@msolga,
Speaking of Afghan women ... I found Malalai Joya, a recent visitor to Australia, had some very interesting things to say about her hopes for Aghanistan:

Afghanistan needs to find its own way to democracy: Malalai Joya
Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Broadcast: 30/06/2009
Reporter: Kerry O'Brien


Quote:
Malalai Joya spent much of her childhood in refugee camps in Iran and Pakistan, before returning to Afghanistan in the 1990s, working to promote women's health and education. Joya was elected to parliament, has survived assassination attempts, travels with a bodyguard, but may stand again at the August election. A secular Muslim, she's a critic of fundamentalists in the Taliban and the northern alliance and says her country needs to find its own way to democracy without military intervention. ... <cont>


http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2009/s2612972.htm
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 02:49 am
OK, back to Oz federal politics. Another rotten poll result for Malcolm today:

Latest poll shows voters not happy with Turnbull after Utegate
Monday, 10 August 2009 6:19 AM

Opposition leader Malcolm Turnbull is under more pressure with another hit in the opinion polls after he conceded he was fooled by a fake document at the centre of the OzCar scandal.

The latest Newspoll has confirmed the Federal Opposition Leader's handling of 'Utegate' didn't impress voters.

Quote:
Just 26 per cent say they're satisfied with Mr Turnbull's performance, a drop of seven percent on July's figures.

Two-party preferred support stayed steady, with Labor leading the Coalition 57 to 43 per cent.


Satisfaction with Prime Minister Kevin Rudd's performance fell slightly in the past two weeks, from 63 to 60 per cent.

Dissatisfaction increased from 26 to 28 per cent.

However, Mr Rudd maintained a huge lead over Mr Turnbull as preferred prime minister, 65 to 17 points.


The result is added pressure on Mr Turnbull as he prepares to address a divided party tomorrow morning before parliament resumes.


http://livenews.com.au/news/latest-poll-shows-voters-not-happy-with-turnbull-after-utegate/2009/8/10/215599
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 02:57 am
@msolga,
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2009/08/09/1008_jh_cartoon,0.jpg
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 03:22 am
@msolga,
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2009/08/09/moir10august_gallery__600x369,0.jpg
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 02:38 am
Well, we all knew this would happen ... but I'm rather shocked, anyway. What happens now?:

Coalition carbon stance 'puts Australia at risk'
By Online parliamentary correspondent Emma Rodgers
Posted 38 minutes ago/ABC NEWs online


http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200803/r233860_937900.jpg
Mr Rudd said the Coalition's actions represented a "disappointing day for Australia". (AAP: Alan Porritt)

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has accused the Opposition of putting the country's future at risk by voting down its emissions trading legislation.

The Coalition and crossbench senators this morning combined to reject the Government's Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme (CPRS).




Quote:
The Government will re-introduce the scheme before the end of the year and will have to negotiate with either the Coalition or crossbench senators to get the legislation passed.

The Opposition will be proposing amendments in the coming months and leader Malcolm Turnbull says a second vote should be delayed until after international climate change talks late this year.

"Why won't the Government make the commonsense decision to defer the final design until after the Copenhagen conference in December?" he said.

Mr Rudd said the Coalition's actions represented a "disappointing day for Australia".

"Today the Liberal Party of Australia is beholden to the climate change sceptics. Today they are absolutely demonstrating themselves as being prisoners of the past, prisoners of their own internal party disunity," he said.

"They are therefore placing the nation's future at risk.

"Rather than marking this day as one where the nation grasps its future, those opposite have chosen instead to consign Australia to the past."

Treasurer Wayne Swan also weighed in, accusing the Opposition of voting against "certainty, confidence and jobs".

Obscene gesture

There were also fiery scenes in the Senate during debate on the scheme.

Amid shouting from both sides and demands that Liberal Senator Bill Heffernan apologise for "making an obscene gesture", Climate Change Minister Senator Penny Wong vowed to re-introduce the scheme this year.

"Whilst those on the other side want to continue to deny that climate change is real and continue to be divided on this issue, we are firm in our resolve to do the right thing," she said.

Coal Association executive director Ralph Hillman says the delay will give the industry more time to negotiate on better protection.

"There are major competitiveness issues for the coal industry that need to be addressed," he said.

The Government is offering $750 million in compensation for the sector, but the industry is pushing for more


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/13/2655269.htm
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 06:30 pm
@msolga,
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2009/08/15/mb_cartoon_1608_gallery__550x400.jpg
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 06:34 pm
@msolga,



ALP set for early, post-Turnbull poll
Josh Gordon
August 16, 2009/Sunday AGE


THE Labor Government is preparing to fight an election against Tony Abbott or Joe Hockey and has bluntly warned senior political advisers to get ready or go home.

With an early election still a possibility, Mr Rudd's most senior staff member, Alister Jordan, yesterday summoned 30 ministerial chiefs of staff to Parliament House for a secret election planning meeting
.

Quote:
In a strongly worded introductory speech - part of which has been obtained by The Sunday Age - Mr Jordan warned: ''Complacency is death in politics.''

He told the chiefs of staff that it was difficult to see Mr Turnbull remaining leader of the Liberal Party at the next election and to prepare to fight Joe Hockey or Tony Abbott, both more popular alternatives.

''He will dig in - all Opposition leaders do,'' Mr Jordan said.

''But Mr Turnbull's judgment and authority have been shot to pieces through his response to the global recession, a messy response on climate change and, of course, the fake email affair.

''We must approach our election planning on the basis that there's a very real possibility Mr Hockey or Mr Abbott will be leading the Opposition.''

It is believed Labor is now moving into a new, more aggressive phase in preparing for the next election, with an early poll still a possibility.

Labor also wants to exert maximum pressure on Mr Turnbull following his refusal to support the Government's emissions trading legislation and has been keen to keep public debate focused on internal divisions in the Liberal Party.

However, most Liberals still believe Mr Turnbull - who has been attempting to steer the debate back towards policy issues - remains the only viable alternative to lead the party.

Despite Labor's huge lead in public opinion polls, Mr Jordan said winning the next election would be ''very, very tough''.

''If we underestimate our opponents, we might as well pack up our bags and go home.''

Labor believes that both Mr Hockey, who has signalled he is not interested in becoming Opposition leader, and Mr Abbott, who recently released a conservative political treatise, would be viewed by the electorate as better alternatives than Mr Turnbull.

Liberal strategists remain deeply concerned about the prospect of an early election, warning that Labor could be in a position to ''lop the head off the future leadership class'' of the Liberal Party by winning a range of key marginal seats around the country.

Mr Turnbull says Mr Rudd is still aiming to take Australia to an early poll before a budget that would contain tough and unpopular decisions.


http://www.theage.com.au/national/alp-set-for-early-postturnbull-poll-20090815-elsl.html
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 06:53 pm
@msolga,
Early election a 'live option' for Rudd
By Samantha Hawley for AM
AM | abc.net.au/am
Posted Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:36pm AEST


Prime Minister Kevin Rudd says it is not his intention to go to an early election, but constitutional experts say it is a real possibility he will.

The bill to establish an emissions trading scheme was voted down in the Senate this week.

If the Government fails to gain the Opposition's support for the bill in the next three months, Mr Rudd will have a double dissolution election trigger.


Quote:
The Opposition says it believes the Government wants to go to an early poll before next year's tough Budget.

Australia's seen six double dissolution elections since federation; the last was more than 20 years ago.

Constitutional law expert George Williams says it is a real possibility that Kevin Rudd will go to an early poll.

"There were two in the 1980s, in '87 and '83, but none since that time. So if we do have a double dissolution election in this cycle it will be the first in some time," he said.

"The double dissolution mechanism is there to be used, and indeed, it's expected that it will be used if it also suits the political interests of the Government."

Mr Rudd says he wants his emissions trading bill passed, rather than an early poll.

But he has not ruled out an early election - and based on recent opinion polling, he would easily win.


No resentment

Constitutional expert David Flint says he does not think the Australian people would resent an early vote.

"I think that people can distinguish between a double dissolution and a Government which just goes early for the hang of it," he said.

"I think where there's a double dissolution and there is an understanding that this is significant, as I would think that they would feel about the ETS, then I don't think that they would vent their anger on the Rudd Government for going early."

A double dissolution election would need to be called before August next year when a poll will be due anyway....<cont>


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/15/2656916.htm
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Oct, 2009 01:25 am
@msolga,
Hi again MsOlga. Long time no see.
I think the only reason to call a double dissolution election would be to extend the current tenure for the ruling party. There's two chances the coalition would win. Buckleys and none. PM Rudd should not put all his eggs in the one basket with this ETS. He's losing focus on his other major election commitments, like taking over the hospitals.

Man, I just been through the ringer of the public health system, and it ain't pretty. I'm self-employed, but I have worked for the gov in an earlier incarnation, and I'm fully aware of the lax attitude of many gov workers, but these people are dealing with lives here. If they don't have a sense of urgency instilled into them soon, the situation will become almost a national embarrassment.

Oops, I think it already is. The nurses were great, but my intern would have kept sticking morph in my arm till I died. The radiologist was more on the ball.

Anyway, I didn't have time to read the whole thread. Been travelling. Good to see you're still batting for the right team, msolga.
 

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