2
   

Is there anything worse than death?

Forums: Philosophy
Email this Topic • Print this Page
 
 
agrote
 
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 09:34 am
Is there anything worse than death?

To me, the answer seems obvious: No. Extreme, lifelong torture with no hope of escape would be worse than dying. Right?

I was surprised to find that one of my classmates disagreed, and thought that death was the worst thing that could ever happen to a person. Does anybody else agree with him?

If so, why?
If not, then this discussion won't last very long. But I will feel reassured that my position is fairly uncontroversial.
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 8,506 • Replies: 81
No top replies

 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 09:45 am
You'll meet many just like me upon life's busy street
With shoulders stooped and heads bowed low and eyes that stare in defeat
Or souls that live within the past where sorrow plays all parts
Where a living death is all that's left for men with broken hearts
You have no right to be the judge to criticize and condemn
Just think but for the grace of God it would be you instead of him
One careless step a thoughtless deed and then the misery starts
And to those who weep death comes cheap these men with broken hearts
Oh so humble you should be when they come passing by
For it's written that the greatest men never get too big to cry
Some lose faith in love and life when sorrow shoots her darts
And with hope all gone they walk alone these men with broken hearts
You've never walked in that man's shoes or saw things through his eyes
Or stood and watched with helpless hands while the heart inside you dies
Some were propers some were kings and some were masters of the arts
But in their shame they're all the same these men with broken hearts
Life sometimes can be so cruel that a heart will pray for death
God why must these living dead know pain with every breath
So help your brother along the road no matter where he starts
For the God that made you made them too these men with broken hearts


Hank Williams
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 10:38 am
Thanks for that. I agree with the message (apart from the God stuff). But just because some living people suffer so much that they wish for death, that doesn't necessarily mean that their wish is rational. It doesn't mean that what they are going through actually is worse than death. Maybe, unbeknownst to them, they would be better off staying alive.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 01:21 pm
Re: Is there anything worse than death?
agrote wrote:

I was surprised to find that one of my classmates disagreed, and thought that death was the worst thing that could ever happen to a person. Does anybody else agree with him?


Did your classmate explain why death was worse than extreme, lifelong torture with no hope of escape?
0 Replies
 
George
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 02:06 pm
If nothing were worse than death, then no one would commit suicide.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 02:46 pm
I heard Jerry Seinfeld tell a joke. In it, he said that he'd read a survey that said more people fear public speaking than they fear death. That meant if you could imagine observing a funeral ceremony taking place with someone at the altar giving a eulogy and with the casket in front of the congregation, more people there would rather be in the box than behind the podium. Laughing
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 04:04 pm
Is there anything better than death?
0 Replies
 
George
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 05:26 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Is there anything better than death?

I can't say with absolute certainly, but I'll settle for life right now.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 06:12 pm
Of all the people I have known, with death impending, only two gave it a welcome, and their lives were thoroughly miserable. To look forward to death seems a negation of life, a rejection of what we are. There is no chance of creativity and exploration in death, as I understand the term. It is to be a nothing. I despise death. I reject it, although, in the end, Poe's conquerer worm will have its feast.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 07:42 pm
Edgar, I love this life, a real adventure, but I also wecome (with occasional hesitations) my inevitable death--but that does not mean that I look forward to it any more than I look forward to my next day of life.

As you must know by now, I do not consider my true existence to have begun when I was born and to end when I die. That would be the case if I identified only with this body and ego. I identify, instead--as weird as it may seem--with the entire Cosmos: I am one passing and continuously changing expression of it, as are you. When this expression ends there will be no end to a "me" because in reality there is no "me" now. THAT is an illusion, a very strong and very necessary one to be sure. And if there is no "me" to "be" (or not-be) in a state of death (and even if there is a me now) "it" will not continue in a "state of death" after the end of my life. So there is no "death" as a kind of reverse state-of-being.

And Stalin even welcomed death--for different reasons--as seen in his statement that death is the end of all problems: no person--he said--no problems.

I think our fear of death is just one big obstruction to our subjective enjoyment of life. One second after my death I will never have lived, as a subjective phenomenon, and when I die I will have lived "forever", i.e., for my subjective forever. And since all things of my life will disappear as experiences with my subjective life I will, in that sense, take it all with me.

Amen and apologies
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 07:45 pm
The last day of ones vacation, far worse than death.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Nov, 2007 08:11 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Edgar, I love this life, a real adventure, but I also wecome (with occasional hesitations) my inevitable death--but that does not mean that I look forward to it any more than I look forward to my next day of life.

As you must know by now, I do not consider my true existence to have begun when I was born and to end when I die. That would be the case if I identified only with this body and ego. I identify, instead--as weird as it may seem--with the entire Cosmos: I am one passing and continuously changing expression of it, as are you. When this expression ends there will be no end to a "me" because in reality there is no "me" now. THAT is an illusion, a very strong and very necessary one to be sure. And if there is no "me" to "be" (or not-be) in a state of death (and even if there is a me now) "it" will not continue in a "state of death" after the end of my life. So there is no "death" as a kind of reverse state-of-being.

And Stalin even welcomed death--for different reasons--as seen in his statement that death is the end of all problems: no person--he said--no problems.

I think our fear of death is just one big obstruction to our subjective enjoyment of life. One second after my death I will never have lived, as a subjective phenomenon, and when I die I will have lived "forever", i.e., for my subjective forever. And since all things of my life will disappear as experiences with my subjective life I will, in that sense, take it all with me.

Amen and apologies


I understand, and I, in a sense, agree. Except, I do not accept the inevitable end with any equanimity.
0 Replies
 
tinygiraffe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Nov, 2007 05:50 am
i think life is sacred, but death isn't always a bad thing.

if you can think of any reason to agree with that, it follows that at least sometimes, there are worse things. a lot of intelligent people view death as relatively neutral, including many that don't believe in an afterlife. here's one that obviously does:

Quote:
I'm not afraid of death because I don't believe in it. It's just getting out of one car, and into another.


another john lennon quote that is interesting to compare with that one:

Quote:
I believe in everything until it's disproved.
So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons.
It all exists, even if it's in your mind.
Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't
as real as the here and now? Reality leaves a
lot to the imagination.
0 Replies
 
anton bonnier
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Nov, 2007 10:25 pm
agrote..
There are millions that fear death, but have the consolation of knowing they have given generously to their priests- church-gods, thus 'knowing? they will go to their after life and 'live' forever after... So they don't fear death ( until they are dying ).
So by your statements it would seem you don't have that luxury, I don't blame you, a cheaper.. quicker way, is perhaps, my own.... I find that if I touch a piece of wood when I think something I don't want to happen, it never does. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 05:13 am
Just the thought of eternal life gives me the creeps. I am very content with the idea of a finite life here on earth, and inevitable death.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 08:59 am
Me too, phoenix, and since I don't believe in an afterlife I'm fully satisfied with making my time on earth a wonderful experience.

To give a straight answer to the question of the thread -- I think being one of the last surviving humans in the aftermath of an apocalypse would be worse than death.

I had a conversation with someone yesterday who is terrified that armageddon will occur in his lifetime and that only the nut-job survivalists will be left standing. I tried to tell him that nut-jobs of all types would be welcome to what's left and that I'd rather check out with the masses. He couldn't see my point.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 09:06 am
Death isn't so bad. It's the dying part that sucks.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 09:33 am
can you ever really die? when does life begin? with procreation? with existence? with sentience?

when you think about it, the universe is one big ass organism.

death would mean an end, of concoiussness.

woop-de-doo. life is merely an addiction anyway.
0 Replies
 
najmelliw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 03:06 pm
Re: Is there anything worse than death?
agrote wrote:
Is there anything worse than death?

To me, the answer seems obvious: No. Extreme, lifelong torture with no hope of escape would be worse than dying. Right?

I was surprised to find that one of my classmates disagreed, and thought that death was the worst thing that could ever happen to a person. Does anybody else agree with him?

If so, why?
If not, then this discussion won't last very long. But I will feel reassured that my position is fairly uncontroversial.


You ask whether esoteric ideas such as death can be placed on a sliding scale from good to bad. Perhaps it can, but I fear that the place it occupies on that scale will be differ for each individual you ask.
Some might seem to have a good life, and still long for death, while others , with terrible lives, would prefer to live forever.
I guess my answer to your question is that it is entirely subjective. It depends on each individual's views on topics such as the quality of life, the afterlife. As for me, death will come when it comes. I can't imagine it would be that terrible. Even if there is no such thing as an afterlife.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Nov, 2007 03:55 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
Did your classmate explain why death was worse than extreme, lifelong torture with no hope of escape?


No.

George wrote:
If nothing were worse than death, then no one would commit suicide.


That's not true. Suppose that nothing is worse than death. People could mistakenly believe that some things are worse than death, and commit suicide because of this false belief.

JLNobody wrote:
Is there anything better than death?


Well it depends what you mean by 'better' and what you mean by 'death'. I don't agree with your conception of death, so I can't comment on whether anything is better than what you call 'death'. My 'death' is of the ordinary secular kind: your body fails, consciousness ends.

From my own subjective point of view, ice cream is better than death.

There seems to be a general concensus that 'worseness' is a subjective matter. najmelliw has articulated that explicitly. That's fine, but I guess it isn't what I had in mind. In the context in which my classmate said that death is the worst thing that can happen to a person, I think the sense of 'worse' we were using was impersonal, or objective, since we were talking about ethics under the assumption of moral realism (the idea that what one ought/ought not to do is an objective matter, and that subjective values don't come into it).

I guess I should have specified what I meant by 'worse'. But to clarify what my classmate meant, I think he was saying that in a moral dilemma, when we are considering the consequences that our actions have for other people, and weighing up which course of action we should take, we should always rate an outcome of death as worse than any other outcome for a person. So from an impersonal standpoint, a person's death is worse than any other outcome for that person, including severe lifelong torture.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
The Void and the Absolute Oneness of the Universe - Discussion by Relinquish
can we reconcile darkness in man with madness(lunacy) ? - Question by studentnorway
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
In the GRAND scheme of things, what matters? - Question by komr98
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
How can something come from nothing? - Question by ripple
Paradigm shifts - Question by Cyracuz
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Is there anything worse than death?
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/04/2024 at 01:13:44
▲ ▼