Water Softener Installation Problems Fleck2510SE

This is why I say folks should deal locally - the company that sold the system to you should be making it right.

You have been abandoned by the online seller.

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OK so Brine tank is supposed to remain full of water between regenerations. Looks like all is working except why the overfill??

I'll have to run it through manually to see what happens.
12 minutes might mean that the tank will overfill every time and the emergency shut off is needed every time...(not what I was told).

I've not given up on the guy I bought it from..yet.

Control Valve Positions:
a. Service Drive shaft out
b. Backwash Drive shaft in
c. Brine / Slow Rinse Drive shaft 1/2 way out
d. Rapid Rinse Drive shaft 3/4 way out
e. Brine Tank Fill Drive shaft out but brine cam holds brine valve stem in.

6. Position valve to backwash and check to make sure that drain line flow remains steady for ten (10) minutes or until
clear (see above).
7. Position valve to brine / slow rinse position and check to see that the unit is drawing water from brine tank (this step
may need repeating).
8. Position valve to rapid rinse and check the drain line flow, run for 5 min. or until the water is clear. (Note: Rapid
rinse and backwash flow rates should be the same).
9. Position valve to start of brine tank fill cycle. See that water goes into the brine tank at proper rate. Brine valve drive
cam will hold valve in at this position to fill the brine tank for the first regeneration.

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kb9nvh wrote:

OK so Brine tank is supposed to remain full of water between regenerations. Looks like all is working except why the overfill??

I'll have to run it through manually to see what happens.
12 minutes might mean that the tank will overfill every time and the emergency shut off is needed every time...(not what I was told).

Since this brine tank overflow problem appeared with the first regeneration of your new softener perhaps the settings for the volume of brine created to regenerate that size softener based on your water conditions is more than the 11x11 tank can hold... hence the overflow.

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Thanks for the response.
I was told that the 11 by 11 tank was sufficient for this 2cuft softener. When I got it it seemed small to me.

I was hopeing that one of you three would know for sure if this brine tank would work with my softener. I honestly wishi I had gotten a larger one after I saw it....but I was assured it was sufficent.

Todd

justalurker wrote:

kb9nvh wrote:
OK so Brine tank is supposed to remain full of water between regenerations. Looks like all is working except why the overfill??

I'll have to run it through manually to see what happens.
12 minutes might mean that the tank will overfill every time and the emergency shut off is needed every time...(not what I was told).

Since this brine tank overflow problem appeared with the first regeneration of your new softener perhaps the settings for the volume of brine created to regenerate that size softener based on your water conditions is more than the 11x11 tank can hold... hence the overflow.

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Re: Water Softener Installation Problems Fleck2510SE

kb9nvh wrote:

My newly installed 2510se overfilled the brine tank last night on its first recycle.
I'm not sure why it recycled except maybe it was doing the 14day override thing because .

You should set the calendar override at the number of days the gallons should usually reach zero gallons remaining. That shouldn't be more than 7-9 days between regenerations.

kb9nvh wrote:

Anyway, I must have adjusted the float a bit to high becuase I had spillage onto the floor (hadn't gotten around to installing the overflow drain yel...Ooppps!!

The only way you ca ndo that is to cut the float rod off so the float doesn't rise to shut off the water through the 2310 valve before the water overflows out the overflow elbow on the side of the brine tank. That assumes the 2310 valve seals when the float raises the arm on the 2310 far enough; about a 1/2" throw.

kb9nvh wrote:

My system is a Fleck2510se 64K softener and the brine tank is a small 11" by 11" by 36" (I think I should have gotten larger but floor space was at a premium).

Hopefully it is large enough to hold the volume of water (one gal/3 lbs of salt) your salt dose causes the control valve to add to the brine tank during refill.

kb9nvh wrote:

So, what dictates how much water goes back into the brine tank? Is it by minutes only or does the 2510se measure gallons into the tank?

It's the minutes the refill position runs for at usually .5 gal (which is 1.5lbs) per minute of refill time.

kb9nvh wrote:

If by minutes only then it would seem that water pressure would have a lot to do with how much water went back in there. I suppose it can count gallons being put in but then why did it overflow? I guess I should have gotten a larger brine tank just for this sort of thing.

As little as 20 psi of water pressure is more than sufficient; the brine line is only 3/8" OD.

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kb9nvh wrote:

Thanks for the response.
I was told that the 11 by 11 tank was sufficient for this 2cuft softener. When I got it it seemed small to me.

Remember, the more salt you put in the brine tank the more the water volume is displaced and the higher the level of water in the brine tank.

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Re: Water Softener Installation Problems Fleck2510SE

Quote:

You should set the calendar override at the number of days the gallons should usually reach zero gallons remaining. That shouldn't be more than 7-9 days between regenerations.

From reading all the posts from you and everyone else it seemed to me that the default was put in there to keep iron fouling from occuring (and maybe organic growth). Anyway, I was going to set it to 10 days until the guy told me 14. I'll set it back to 9 days per your recomendation.

Quote:

The only way you ca ndo that is to cut the float rod off so the float doesn't rise to shut off the water through the 2310 valve before the water overflows out the overflow elbow on the side of the brine tank. That assumes the 2310 valve seals when the float raises the arm on the 2310 far enough; about a 1/2" throw.

I"m pretty confused by this overflow as it seemed like the float was to its stops way before it hit the overflow hole. Either the float jammed or I just dont know. Using mouth pressure I verified that the valve shuts off and turns on when up/down.

Quote:

Hopefully it is large enough to hold the volume of water (one gal/3 lbs of salt) your salt dose causes the control valve to add to the brine tank during refill.

If its not I'll be asking for a replacement as this one was supposed to work for this size softener according to the dealer.

Quote:

It's the minutes the refill position runs for at usually .5 gal (which is 1.5lbs) per minute of refill time.

When I get a chance I'll run this through manually and see how much water goes in after 12 minutes and if the emergnecy valve works to stop the flow (if it gets to that point)

Quote:

As little as 20 psi of water pressure is more than sufficient; the brine line is only 3/8" OD.

I'll double check my connections also, maybe it was ok for suction but too loose to stop the flow when the check valve turned off?? Still means my tank is too small though unless there was some "extra" step I accidentally programed that put to much water in at some point..

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kb9nvh wrote:

Bought from QualityWatertreatment.com
They have been very responsive and I am awaiting a response from him as well on this.

Historically that ends very quickly....

kb9nvh wrote:

Settings are as follows:
U-1 (us)
7-3
3130 gallons till regeneration
2AM delay
A14 (14 day default regeneration)
step 1-10
step 2-60
step 3-10
step 4-12
5OFF
flow meter size F126 (2510se)
0-1
LF60

Look in your manual, they look like the factory default settings. If they are, you need to get Jeremy is it at QWT to give you setup/program data based on your water quality and family size etc..

kb9nvh wrote:

When first set up yesterday the brine tank was empty.
At 2am it recycled (even though we hadn't used our gallons yet).
This morning the rug is wet (brine overflowing out the unfinished overflow drain

You should have been told to add water to the brine tank as part of the installation. Otherwise the first regen doesn't get any salt brine AND tehn the unit must wait until the next regen and the salt dose will be much less than needed to regen all the capacity you've used since the day of installation.

kb9nvh wrote:

Overflow valve was set to pink tag instructions with 10" vrom botttom of float to top of bottome tank strainer. I may have had it 1/2" too long which would explain the overflow if they were cutting it that close with 10".]

Done as per that tag says means when the control valve is programmed to refill more water than the level of the float, the 2310 (a safety valve to stop overflows) shuts the water off before the control valve and then you get fewer lbs of salt than the salt dose setting in the control valve.

kb9nvh wrote:

Just now I accidentally got it in recycle mode and before I could shut it down it sucked about 1/2gallon of brine into the softener. (hope the cloths dont turn white when they dry from the salt in the washing machined that was running at the time.??

When your type of softener regenerates and something uses water, you get hard raw water, not water through the softener.

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OK, just got off the phone with they dealer.
first he says that the 11X11 tank can be used for up to 84Kgrain softener so it should be OK for my 64K one.
He also said that if I boost my pressure to 60lbs it may overfill and I might need to adjust my time for less minutes. The overfill may have been due to me not adding water to the brine tank after I set it up. softener sucked air (when it thought it was sucking brine) and then when it went to regenerate to might have put too much water back in due to th abnormal air sucking it did previously.

He said to run it manually and suck out all the brine, back wash for about 5 minutes and then have it add water for the 12 minutes and see what level it gets to. Also, If my connection at the safetly valve wasn't tight enough then water could have squirted out even when the valve was trying to be in the shut off position.

I'll let eveyone know how this goes tomorrow.

justalurker wrote:

kb9nvh wrote:
Thanks for the response.
I was told that the 11 by 11 tank was sufficient for this 2cuft softener. When I got it it seemed small to me.

Remember, the more salt you put in the brine tank the more the water volume is displaced and the higher the level of water in the brine tank.

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How many gallons of brine do I need for a 64Kgrain softener if I deplete it up the the recommended 1 day left scenerio?

I can let the line run into a 5 gallon bucket to judge water at 12 minutes to eliminate the confusion of having salt and water together.

A 36inch by 11 by 11 tank holds 19 gallons of water alone (no salt).

The safety valve should shut off at maybe 13 inches so I'm assuming they intend for about 10inches of water (with salt) to be in this tank which would be about 5 gallons of water (without salt).

Seems like the tank is too small if I need more a than a gallon or two for regen????

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kb9nvh wrote:

A 36inch by 11 by 11 tank holds 19 gallons of water alone (no salt).

19 gallons if the water level is up to the overflow elbow?

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justalurker wrote:

Since this brine tank overflow problem appeared with the first regeneration of your new softener perhaps the settings for the volume of brine created to regenerate that size softener based on your water conditions is more than the 11x11 tank can hold... hence the overflow.

Unless the float filled with water and the 2310 valve didn't work as designed, that can't happen.

The volume of refill water depends on the salt dose lbs and the salt dose can be set at from like 1 to 30 lbs for "that size softener".

The 12 minutes says 18 lbs, and in 2.0 cuft regular mesh resin you get like 50-51k. His 31xx gallons is WAY TOO HIGH, what should they be set to?

What capacity is optimal for his softener based on his family of 6 was it and 18 gpg plus some iron (IIRC), call it 20 gpg compensated hardness?

What salt dose in his softener provides that capacity? That capacity provides how many gallons between regenerations and... is the 2.0 cuft softener too large for his family size and water quality?

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justalurker wrote:

kb9nvh wrote:
Thanks for the response.
I was told that the 11 by 11 tank was sufficient for this 2cuft softener. When I got it it seemed small to me.

It probably is as long as it is set up correctly, which right now it isn't.

justalurker wrote:
Remember, the more salt you put in the brine tank the more the water volume is displaced and the higher the level of water in the brine tank.

That isn't true of his softener if he has their 'standard' configuration softener.

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justalurker wrote:

Remember, the more salt you put in the brine tank the more the water volume is displaced and the higher the level of water in the brine tank.

That isn't true of his softener if he has their 'standard' configuration softener.[/quote]

Please explain this Gary....I would think that you would need X gallons of liquid brine and the salt would cause the level to go higher in my tank? How could it not???

Say 5 gallons of liquid are in the brine tank..then I add salt and the level must rise. Am I missing some impotant step that the valve does?

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Gary Slusser wrote:

justalurker wrote:
Remember, the more salt you put in the brine tank the more the water volume is displaced and the higher the level of water in the brine tank.

That isn't true of his softener if he has their 'standard' configuration softener.

The laws of physics apply regardless of the configuration of his softener.
It's "volume displacement" click here

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OK, I manually cycled the softener and here's the scoop.
Brine draw took about 13 minutes to suck out all the water in there but it was way higher than even the shut off.

AFter brine draw to nothing I let it keep going as teh sounds were changing somewhat. As it sat and tried to suck I did notice some air bubbles in the line going into the softener...not fast but definitly moving.

Next I let the thing rinse for about 8 minutes then hit the refill brine tank step. It immediately said 11 not 12 as it is programed for so I guess it starts its count down from 12 and never shows 12. At 6 minutes the sound increased and the flow into the tank seemed to increase. This was also about the time that salt settled into the tank scaring me a bit.

At about 4 minutes left the water level rose to a point that the emergency float CUT OFF the flow (it did work this time). That was it. So either the tanks too small, the valve has some problem, air in the line is the issue or 11 minutes is too long. At about 15 inches until the valve shuts it off I get about 8 gallons of water/salt mixture. (how many gallons of liquid I dont know because there is salt taking up some volume.

So, is my brine tank too small, is my minutes too long, is my valve broken or do I have an air leak problem????

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kb9nvh wrote:

OK, just got off the phone with they dealer.
first he says that the 11X11 tank can be used for up to 84Kgrain softener so it should be OK for my 64K one.

DONE RIGHT the size of the brine tank depends on the volume of water used for the salt dose lbs, not the "64k" etc. capacity.

The max salt dose lbs for your "64k" softener is 30 lbs, or 10 gallons of brine water. That doesn't leave much room/space for salt right?

kb9nvh wrote:

He also said that if I boost my pressure to 60lbs it may overfill and I might need to adjust my time for less minutes.

Totally wrong. The flow to the brine tank is flow controlled.

kb9nvh wrote:

The overfill may have been due to me not adding water to the brine tank after I set it up. softener sucked air (when it thought it was sucking brine) and then when it went to regenerate to might have put too much water back in due to th abnormal air sucking it did previously.

Impossible. Sucking air leaves water in the brine tank, but you didn't put any in, so there was more space for the measured and flow controlled volume the control valve added in the 12 minutes of post refill.

kb9nvh wrote:

Also, If my connection at the safetly valve wasn't tight enough then water could have squirted out even when the valve was trying to be in the shut off position.

YES! That's the only way this could have happened.

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kb9nvh wrote:

OK, I manually cycled the softener and here's the scoop.
Brine draw took about 13 minutes to suck out all the water in there but it was way higher than even the shut off.

We want the brine out in the first 10-20 minutes of brine draw but... how high is the salt in the tank?

Do you have a salt grid in the tank?

I think you might want to check the BLFC button's gpm. There should be a label around the control valve's drain line connection fitting that will have .5 gpm/1.5lbs or other numbers on it; what numbers does yours have?

kb9nvh wrote:

AFter brine draw to nothing I let it keep going as teh sounds were changing somewhat. As it sat and tried to suck I did notice some air bubbles in the line going into the softener...not fast but definitly moving.

That is due to the air check allowing some air in, it isn't a problem unless there is a lot of air. And you have no air leaks in the brine system or it would not have sucked all the brine down to the air check.

kb9nvh wrote:

At about 4 minutes left the water level rose to a point that the emergency float CUT OFF the flow (it did work this time).

That's because the float is set way too low (at 10" above the grid). It has to be cut off so the flat top is 1-2" below the bottom of the white plastic nut that holds the elbow overflow fitting out through the side of the brine well and tank.

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Quote:

We want the brine out in the first 10-20 minutes of brine draw but... how high is the salt in the tank?
Do you have a salt grid in the tank?

Salt was up to the top now dropped about 7 inches due to recycles.
There is a salt grid in the bottom of the tank that the salt sit on. Also,
My brine pickup rod seems just a bit too long and it bows with I put the stud in the hold that affixes the float assembly?? Is there a notch down there that the brine pickup should be sitting in?

Quote:

I think you might want to check the BLFC button's gpm. There should be a label around the control valve's drain line connection fitting that will have .5 gpm/1.5lbs or other numbers on it; what numbers does yours have?

Numbers are 0.5gpm and 1.5lbs as you predicted

Quote:

That's because the float is set way too low (at 10" above the grid). It has to be cut off so the flat top is 1-2" below the bottom of the white plastic nut that holds the elbow overflow fitting out through the side of the brine well and tank.

OK, well not problem adjusting it up to a few inches below the emergency drain. I was happy to see it stop though..LOL

So, bottom line is my tank is really too small. Actually, I dont understand the "optimal salt dose thing". So, we dont necessisarily want to 100% recharge the media? I figured that to optimally use the softener you would deplete it every 7 days and then run enough salt through to 100% recharge it. Doesn't that mandage a certain amount of salt???

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kb9nvh wrote:

There is a salt grid in the bottom of the tank that the salt sit on.

Yeah, I was pretty sure it did. That makes the water displacement due to the salt load a bit different than when the salt is down in the water huh.

kb9nvh wrote:

Also, My brine pickup rod seems just a bit too long and it bows with I put the stud in the hold that affixes the float assembly?? Is there a notch down there that the brine pickup should be sitting in?

Won't hurt it at all unless it causes the float to hang crooked and bind up when raised.

Gary Slusser wrote:

I think you might want to check the BLFC button's gpm. There should be a label around the control valve's drain line connection fitting that will have .5 gpm/1.5lbs or other numbers on it; what numbers does yours have?

kb9nvh wrote:

Numbers are 0.5gpm and 1.5lbs as you predicted.

kb9nvh wrote:

So, bottom line is my tank is really too small.

Not true as long as the softener is set up correctly. Below you get into assumptions that are incorrect.

kb9nvh wrote:

Actually, I dont understand the "optimal salt dose thing". So, we dont necessisarily want to 100% recharge the media? I figured that to optimally use the softener you would deplete it every 7 days and then run enough salt through to 100% recharge it. Doesn't that mandage a certain amount of salt???

A 100% means you would have to use 60k of capacity between regenerations and then, 30 lbs of salt to regenerate 60,000 grains of regenerated capacity. By the time you got down to say 50k, you'd start getting hard water through the resin/softener and... that could happen much sooner than at 50k depending on how many gpm run through it.

So, 60000/30= 2000 grains per lb salt efficiency. So are you using 60K of capacity in 7 days? No, you're using 60k in like 4-5 days! And that's without any reserve! No variable reserve, a feature lacking on the 2510SE or otherwise. So 30lbs every 4-5 days.... man that's terrible and QWT didn't do you any favors. Although you may have paid less for it, you'll spend a hell of a lot more money than the savings on pump wear, water use and a lot of extra salt over the life of the softener.

I would have sold you a correctly sized larger softener than a 2.0 cuft that would have regenerated every 4 days on average and used only 15 lbs of salt. Or a larger one than that using more salt per regen but it would regen once every 8 days on average (using less water than 2 regens in 4 days) but, I assume kids at home and if they were older and leaving soon, the first/smaller would have been better.

And then, depending on the salt dose, and possibly another different part in the salt tank, your 11 x 11 salt tank could hold the brine water without problems. The bottom line is that you should have bought from me. :wink:

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Water Softener Installation Problems Fleck2510SE

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