OBEY THE LAW = DEATH SENTENCE ???

Jesus, Wilso! Don't let facts interfere, will you?

Just off the top of my head, I can think of South Africa, Zimbabwe....

Roger - what exactly does your therapy stuff mean re the folk who get angry and stubborn re armed robbery? Did you think I was being critical? I am fond of irony...

Oh - and, speaking of not letting facts get in the way, can some of you stop talking about stuff like gun PROHIBITION in Oz?

WE DID NOT PROHIBIT GUNS! We prohibited military-style stuff - whatever they are - uzis, whatever, automatics and semi-machine guns - crap like that.

You can still, if you are licensed licensed, get rifles and such - enough to blow away home-invaders and armed robbers - (not that most people ever armed themselves for such purposes) - we NEVER had pistols available to ordinary buyers, only to club shooters

People still have access to guns - like they always did - just not weapons of mass destruction, readily concealed guns and so forth.

The folk who felt they needed the things can still have 'em. We do NOT have a citizenry suddenly denuded of their artillery, forlorn and defenceless against the rapacious hordes.

This pretty much negates theses about gun "prohibition" raising the Oz crime rate.

Not that it matters much, but counting both Black Powder and conventional contemporary metal cartridge firearms, I have 23 guns, assorted among shotguns, rifles, muskets, and pistols. I belong to the NRA, I hunt, and I really enjoy target shooting ... have since I was a little kid. I load my own ammo, and do most of my own gunsmithing. My favorite personal carry piece is a SigArms SP2340 Pro, .40S&W/.357Sig Convertible, generally fitted for .40S&W, carried in a Bianchi Model 6D ATB Waistband holster worn sorta between the right hip and the small of the back ... unobtrusive and very comfortable, even when driving. My "Home Defense" weapon-of-choice would be a shotgun, my Remington 11-87 Tactical, 18" barrel, Composite Stock, AimPoint sights, 3" Magnum 00 Buckshot, no choke. It is loaded (though double safetied and uncocked, with the chamber empty) and in an antler rack above the headboard of the bed. I see no point TRADING fire with an intruder, should one manage to get past the dogs; if it comes to it I would much prefer to clear the room with a couple or three pumps in a second or so and then patch the drywall as necessary. For just plain fun, I really enjoy Black Powder. A Colt 1844 Navy Revolver, Blued Frame, Brass Fittings, Chequered Ash grips, in .44 Cal is a real challenge to handle accurately, and a .54 Cal Hawken Long Rifle is just about the most accurate, hard-hitting Muzzle Loader there is, IMHO. My favorite Blackpowder piece, however, is a neat little Pennsylavania Rifle in .32 Cal; its a squirrel gun, and a real tack-driver. For general local game hunting, I like my Marlin Lever Action Saddle Carbine, Cal .35 Winchester with standard open sights. It was my first "Big Folks" gun; it had been my mom's since she was a kid, and she gave it to me when I was 10. That puppy has put literally tons of meat in my larder over the decades since. The walnut stock has that glowing, lustrous finish that only years of use and assiduous care can provide. My Ruger Mini-14, Cal .273, Stainless Finish, Walnut Stock, is an ideal varmint gun, particularly as it mounts a 3X-10X Nikon scope. Just plain plinkin' is great fun with my Ruger 10-22, another tackdriver ... 1" groups at 100 yards with CCI Stingers. I'd have to say the most powerful handgun I own is another Ruger, a Redhawk in Cal. 44 Magnum, 8" Barrel, fixed sights, Blued Finish with hand carved bone grips ... at 25 yards, it'll put a round clear through an old Chevy, lengthwise, as long as it doesn't hit the engine block. If the block is hit, it usually shatters a huge hunk of of it ... tears it right off. I'd sure like a Desert Eagle in .50 Cal, but they're pretty damned scarce, and I just can't justify the cost Vs funfactor ratio, either for the piece or for its ammo.

Right on, Timber. I'm not pro-gun, in the same way I'm not pro-football -- both bore me. I'm pro-native grasses and pro-multiculturalism -- both of which probably bore many gun and football fans people. Guns are probably more dangerous, conceptually, than native grasses, but the most dangerous of all is the person angry and/or greedy enough to use a gun on another person. Anger, pride, machismo, narcissism, tunnel vision, violence fetishes -- these are all considerably more dangerous than the cold, hard piece of metal you enjoy working with. I'd like to see them outlawed long before guns are. (And I always feel this gun debate is really about something else.)

So, to what do you attribute it? The rising violent crime rate, I mean.

Sorry for replying to points within your post. I never thought it attractive and there should be a more polite way of making it clear exactly what my response is related to.

I'm pretty big on Native Grasses, and particicipate actively in the Prairie Restoration Program. I do like football, though, both Pro and College. I'm a big Nascar fan, too ... sorta figures, don't it?

LOL! prolly just one of those things there is no point discussing, Roger, the gulf is way too wide.

We think your guns crazy - you think our lack of them equally so.

I still have way less chance of being murdered than you do.

yeah, like 35 000 to one.

Nah, it's a ratio of 1:9 (Oz) to 1:1 (US).

Australia is still one of the most heavily armed nations on earth.

Whatever happened to stamp collecting? Of course, I wouldn't recommend using a gun if you're a butterfly collector. Just seems like maybe someone might need a net to capture some of the more ridiculous advocates of gun proliferation.

That is exactly what I was beginning to suspect, Deb.

Around here we don't hunt stamps. We trap 'em. Nice bait o' hide glue brings 'em in like wildfire.

The only thing dangerous about collecting stamps would be if someone poisoned the glue. Butterfly collection could be dangerous considering the film
"Angels and Insects." I wonder how many gun collectors have indulged in incest?

Not sure that it is one of the determining factors, LW!!

yes - why use heavy artillery for butterflies - just a wee li'l pistol will blow 'em to kingdom come....

I have never done that, but I have put stamps on them ('tis how you banded the li'l smeggers - wipe away a little wing-dust, pop a weeny stamp on the spot - release - they soon straighten up and fly right) - odd but true...

Which project, Timber? Am a great admirer, hope to visit restoration projects in OK, Kansas, and Illinois this fall. So what do you think the gun debate is really about?

Most butterfly collectors use hatpins to spear and display the butterflies. It's dissapointing to read that the Atlas Moth only lives for one day as well as many butterfly species. Now that's transitory.

Guns have shortened many billions of lives, some haven't lived on Earth for more than a month. That's part of the rationale of looking the other way -- it's a population deterrant.

The Wisconsin Dept. Of Natural Resources, along with Uncle Fed, has a Prairie Restoration Project, Tartarin. Essentially, a landowner dedicates a portion of acreage, in perpetuity, to the project and receives tax incentives, plus DNR-donated seeds and saplings and advice. The land cannot be tilled or otherwise cultivated, apart from the reintroduction of native flora. It must be open to public hunting/fishing as applicable and seasonal recreational use (ie: Snowmobile Trails can cross it without formal easement). Some of my land is enrolled in it now, and a stand of timber (all second-or-third-growth artificially introduced poplar, pine, and other softwood ... good only for paper pulp and shipping pallets) which is due for harvest next spring will be enrolled once it is cleared. According to old maps, a hundred-plus years ago it was a natural upland meadow.

I think "The Gun Debate" is pretty much just a subtext of an overall assault on Constitutional Rights, carried on by the Big Government, Tax-and-Spend-on-Entitlements crowd ... the type of folks who'll kill to keep a logger from earning a living, or beat a pro-life advocate to death; the fringies, the left wing counterparts of the rightwingnuts who bomb abortion clinics and form armed militias with racist agendas. Loonies are loonies, whatever flag they wave.

I haven't read of any loggers or pro-lifers who have been beaten to death. Enlighten me.

BTW, our government is now the largest in the history of the world. Who exactly is against big government?

You're probably right, Timber. I'm always sorry to see fellow liberals having a knee-jerk (or so I'd label it) response in that issue. I did too, once, until I thought it through and realized that guns are a metaphor for a lot of people, but for others they're a serious necessity. But talking about guns is like talking about cancer -- both are umbrella terms for a variety of problems and solutions.

I'm doin' my damnedest to get the native blues, Indian grass and side-oats (among others) back into my fields. And having some success. But to keep them healthy one needs herds of buffalo stomping through OR controlled burns. The latter is a possibility, but when burn month rolls around here, it's usually really windy -- too risky. I like the way Wisconsin is doing it -- smart state. Public/private programs are rampant here in Texas too. They're terrific -- smart, friendly, encouraging, and a poke in the eye of folks who said it would never happen!

Ahh, its just an attitude thing, LW ... you know ... "On The Mark" if its your side hyperbolizing, "Partisan ranting" if the other side engages in it. As for loggers, some folks have driven heavy spikes into crop trees, with the effect of causing chainsaws to kick back or to break and shed their chains, resulting in injury or death to forrestry workers. And for pro-lifers vs pro-choicers, a few years back there was a very ugly series of incidents in Milwaukee ... nobody got killed, I don't think, but there were arrests and injuries on both sides. Some of that brouhaha was source material (suitably over-dramatized) for the Laura Dern movie Citizen Ruth. As for Big Government, Will Rogers said. "Our Government is constantly growing to meet the needs of an ever-expanding government"
He also said "While it is true we have the best politicians money can buy, we should be eternally grateful we get nowhere near the government we pay for". :wink:

In 1999, there were only 154 justifiable homicides by private citizens in the United States.

This is out of a total of around 30 000 gun related deaths.

The assertion that a person needs a gun for protection has as much substance as smoke.

http://www.millionmommarch.org/facts/research.asp?record=6