PA wont tell voters WHERE to vote

Spain and Pennsylvania are pretty close together? No?

Classically paranoid. Consider how many polling stations there are in the US. This has that element of "I'm so centrally important that of course the aliens/CIA will pick ME to do there bad stuff to."

Well, excuse Harrisburg, they're still hurting from the Civil War.

Maybe when you get to the polling place, you have to knock three times, and say, "Joe sent me!"

In all of our laws re elections (state, federal and EU), the places of the polling stations must be published ... because we elect "general, direct, free, equal and secret elections".
("General " means that all citizens are able to vote, which means that they must know their polling station early enough in advance.)
That's part of our constititution as well.

I don't think it is paranoid at all. Consider the many years of indoctrination Americans have gone through just like mice in a cage.


Don't drink this, it is bad for you. Don't eat that because someone's pig crapped in the fields 3000 miles away, don't eat those because some employee was careless in cooking them to doneness. Don't hang around birds or mosquitos or you'll die. Don't eat meat because the animals in other countries are sick. Don't serve hot beverages because someone might sue you.

Don't trust these people because they are republicans/democrats/liberals/conservatives. Don't go outside because your kids might get stolen. Your kids are going to die if you don't get them to go outside and exercise. Don't go to public places when traveling because you'll be a target for terrorists. Vaccinate your children or they'll get sick and die. If you vaccinate your children they could die from the vaccination.

Anyone who criticizes the government is an enemy. Anyone who supports the government is ignorant. Anyone who does not support our troops is a traitor. Anyone against the war must still support our troops in that war. If you make telephone calls or write emails you're being observed. If you don't slam on the brakes soon enough and slide through an intersection the cameras will catch you and send a ticket. Don't pick your nose or your butt while outside your home unless you want to see it on You Tube or the six o'clock news.

If it is August and time for the annual renewal of the patriot act then the terror alert will rise to orange. If you see a package on your porch step, be careful, it could be a mail bomb. If your skin is not white, be careful what you say and who you hang out with or you may end up in a foreign prison. If you are not a christian, you are evil and may be the enemy.

Nope, not paranoid at all. In fact it is downright patriotic to be so considerate of our citizens in this time of need for so much protection for our own good.

Possibly this news item seems atypical for a northeastern state; however, I defer to the intelligence of the people in Pennsylvania. Aside from having the Amish, they have a large German-American population. I defer to their intelligence.

Butrflynet:

You are beginning to sound as cynical as I am. :wink: Better watch that, Big Brother will get you if you don't watch out!

Oh, you forgot, "You can't say that because it is not 'politically correct'", soon to be replaced with, "you can't say that because it is 'hate speech' and a crime, to boot." Where are the Thought Police when you need 'em?

Halfback

You're not cynical Hb. Whatever gave you that idea. I've copped you thrumming with indignation. You're cute. You care about things.

I'm cynical and I get **** on left, right and centre for it.

Who do you consider to be a cynical writer?

The elections commissions are county <not state, officers. The counties publish the polling places. Penssylvania is weird in that , although its population has remained about the same for 30 years, the residents seem to "shuffle around" into areas that cause urban abandonment in favor of suburban sprawl. Polling places keep changing year to year. Were this an election in which a number of state or national offices were up for grabs, believe me, the polling places would be transmitted by all sorts of media.

Harriburg is kind of a punk backwater town in the (almost) center of the state and the election is mostly about county and township officials.

PS, the AMISH vote regularly for only their local, county, nd state offices. THEY DO NOT CAST VOTES FOR PRESIDENT OR CONGRESS. (They consider it "Hochmut")

If that's their reason why do they absolve the lesser officials of the charge of pride in standing for office?

because the lesser officials are within their governmental "neighborhood". Amish parishes require that they pay taxes and support the local govt services. Most of our volunteer firemen are Amishmen. They are local community oriented. The Federal govt controls the ARmed services (the governor controls the state militia so the Amish probably dont vote in the gubernatorial races either)

A fair question spendi.

Okay. I think.

But why don't they think it "Hochmut" to wear distinctive clothes and have habits unlike the rest of us (ignoring the usual offices I mean) ?

Let's face it, that's dead easy.

Seen from here your presidential race looks to be one almighty obstacle course and the idea that someone who wins one like that is dumb is incomprehensible to me.

I think I practice Hochmut. I wouldn't vote for anybody who wanted to control all our lives but I know somebody has to. I can't see it making much difference if you had a raffle. It might make it easier for the officials. I've read some stuff about officials and they seem to think that somebody coming in with a head full of new fangled ideas is about the worst thing than can possibly happen.

The only trouble with a raffle is that all the razza would be cancelled (apart from the Big Nite) and some occupational downshifting come into play.

You know all those articles you are all reading, even now, with 12 months to go, well try to think forward to their effect when you are in the curtained booth. And then you vote X and a young girl comes out saying she voted for Y because he's so dishy. Or even a middle-aged lady with a pampered poodle. Or both.

In your heart of hearts fm do you think ladies should be voting at all?

Do Amish women vote or, if they do, do they vote how their husbands tell them to?

1The Amish mode of dress was initiated in the late 1500's and has not appreciably changed (except for the incorporation of new fabrics and materials)

They dont ever wear buttons or zippers because these are "showy " and also buttons were a symbol of military uniforms (So the Amish uniform is plain black covering over a colorful sirt or , for the women a long colorfull dress with either a white apron or black coat. ALl sexes wear a standard hat (appropriate and prescribed by the event or the season)

Amish men (and women) vote only in elections that do not have any responsibilities in armed forces , militia, sherriffs, or district attornies. The rules vary from parish to parish and state to state but the avoidance of having anything to do wiuth a military is their "prime directive"


Im more in tune with an elective policy similar to those proposed by Jonathan Swift. Theyre equally insane and just as valid.

What does sex and the franchise have in common? I think you were born 100 years too late .

Amish women in our area often vote. I believe that the AMish "block" is more a HIVE vote rather than an individual.

Blimey!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I don't fancy that. I reckon that would result in the outlawing of the knickerless can-can, judicially approved miniscule "allhismonies", netball extravaganzas, the banning of smoking in pubs, it being illegal not to have new curtains every year and not having debts spiralling, it might be one "l" there as I don't think I've ever written that word before, into the wide blue yonder leading eventually to such a dramatic decline in beer sales that the DOW would plummet so far that it would be necessary for financial experts to understand negative powers of 10 to get a fleeting glimpse of its bottom.

Why aren't "new fabrics and materials" Hochmut"? Do low caste Amish wear ordinary homespun wool stuff and is top dog's kit woven from Himalayan goat hair with special stitching round the collar?

One might easily think that unusual hats were "showy".

Is it not a bit of a teleology to say that buttons are a "symbol of military uniforms". The buttons up the back of Jennifer Whiteside's basque were a symbol of the futilty of impatience.

Obviously, avoiding anything to do with the military is quite understandable. Name me one creature which wouldn't scuttle up the nearest drainpipe at the sound of a paper bag being burst.

That's an evolutionary imperitive.

Spendius:

Vonnegut, Orwell, to name a couple.

Cynics, of Greek history, were a sect of philosophers who advocated that virtue was the only good. Furthermore, the essence of virtue was self control.

In a Nation where "self control" is regarded as a negative influence toward "feeling good about ones self" and might "stifle ones creativity" we are left to ponder the "end game" of such thinking.

One the one hand we have complete anarchy, guided only by the selfish interests of the individual, regardless of the effects to the society at large. I believe the concept could be summed up: "Hurray for me and F*** you!"

At the other extreme the population, fearing anarchy, runs to the Government for a controlling influence. The Government, then, inherits the task of enforcing "self control" (or "virtue" or "ultimate good", even personal responsibility).

Put another way, at the one end you have "absolute freedom" at the other a dictatorship. The answer is "The Middle Way" or a balance achieved by self disciplined, responsible citizens "who care". That very little of "The Middle Way" is exhibited in politics (including this forum), I hold to be self evident.

Yeah, I'm a cynic.

Halfback

Im just the messenger here. The Amish believe in close personal contact so there has risen a substantial mercantile class among them (as farmland gets scarcer). Amish stores tend to be "General Merchandise" sources in which are carried many different classes of pre made bolts of various grade cloths from cotton fabric, all the way to rayon and nylon double knits. My wife and I often shop at an amish store .She selects fabrics for quilting and Im always amazed at the hundreds of bolts of different kinds of "BLACK" cloth , as well as thousands of bolts of different colors and patterns.

Buttons and zippers are proscribed by "Amish Safety and Culture Committees" that are presided over by male elders and bishops. The deliberation process gets rather TAlmudic and often the subjects are lost in arcane reasoning, so I dont profess to fully understand.

For example, they may own tractors but only as support machinery, tractors may not be used for actual field work, wherein horses and mules are still used.
The AMish arent "luddites", they use technology but only if it can be "disconnected from the world grid". They will use appliances like refrigerators (gas) and electric appliances , but only if they can generate their own electricity. They use large generators powered by gas turbines that are powered by propane. MAny will have radios or tvs and phones but never in their homes. Their social contact relies upon direct communication and surrounds "visiting" and social dinners. WHose to say that this is primitive. As long as the community remains intact and sommewaht insular, they appear healthy (there are some congenital diseases unique to their population) but most of that has to do with limited genetic variability.

We are accepted by many of the local AMish community and this has led to a closer communication and , when I was sick earlier this past summer, the sons of one AMish farmer took all my hay cutting from 50 acres and cut it, baled it, and put it in the barn for me. Noone asked for help.
The boys also do their turn as volunteer firemen. (They stay down at the firehouse for 8 hour shifts for no pay) .

I think your cynicism and attempts to find amusement at the world as it is would be run head-long against an equal amount of selflessness as demonstrated by these people. Theyd give you ample time to "get it" , and then theyd just avoid you if you didnt. They are quite extraordinary.
Ive said that they can be a little hypocritical but only wrt accomodation of technology. They need to have dispensations granted by the bishops and elders before they can fully accept technology.
Many AMish are involved in machine trades that involve heavy equipment and power tools. They make use of lots of "green technology" such as photovoltaic and geothermal (most non-Amish havent caught up with this apparent common sensical approach to energy dependance)

spendi wrote

Nicely phrased, but missing the point for the sake of the nice phrasing.

The Amish (or Mennonite, my family tradition) reject claims to authority over them. Authority resides in the bible (new testament particularly) and in their structures of internal leadership. One isn't too far off in seeing this tradition as another version of libertarianism.

Their pacifism can be considered a consequence of two things. First, their theology, that is, their understanding that true or proper christian behavior will follow from the sermon on the mount and christ's injunction to 'turn the other cheek'. Second, it's a consequence of the period of anabaptist formation, when european social orders were in the turmoil of reorganization around the growth of secular powers (princes, aristocracies) and where these powers were increasingly engaged in warfare with each other to increase their power and wealth, thus needing personnel for their armies. The anabaptist response was "Sorry, you have no authority over us, go away."

Bernie wrote-



Isn't it nice of the rest of us to allow them that little affectation. It shows what a tolerant society they have around them. Crushed as we are by authority we do not find such a claim objectionable. Ridiculous more like.
Do you think they would be as tolerant if they were the established ruling caste and the minority wished to pusue its wicked ways.

I read somewhere of some quaint sexual custom a well known cult in that area went in for. Would it be the Amish? It wasn't exactly conducive to the get up and go attitude of most Americans. (The 7 minute rule). If it is no wonder they wear pointed hats.

I asked about their dress. Is it possible to glean hierarchical information about them from small and subtle signifiers in their apparel?

I presume they wouldn't have stood up to Hitler then?