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The Republicans are out of ideas

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Oct, 2007 08:06 pm
Halfback wrote:
I offer this as food for thought. My personal belief is that getting any control on Government Spending is damn near impossible. We are two generations into doing it the way we are.

I dont get this alarmism. How quickly people forget? Forget two generations - it was just eight years ago that Bill Clinton was running balanced budgets. He'd done so by modestly raising taxes and modestly cutting spending - thats all really.

Now we are eight years of supply side madness on, and you are deep into debt for simple enough reasons. There is no "pox on both their houses" to this. There used to be balanced budgets. Then Bush came and insisted on simultaneously:

1) Starting a horrendously expensive and unnecessary war
2) Slashing taxes, especially for the richest in the country
3) Escalating spending, not just on military matters but on simple pork.

You cant do all those three things at once. You can not do all those three things at once, without suddenly exploding deficits. Its plain, simple logic.

Wars traditionally are funded by taxes. During WW2, top tax rates were in the ninety-something percent brackets. If you DO think a specific war is a life-or-death necessity, then you have to ask all your countrymen to shoulder the burden and tighten their belts and pay for it, instead of borrowing the money and saddling future generations up with the debt.

Instead, you have these doctrinarian supply-side conservatives proclaiming that slashing taxes will lead to increased revenues - to revenues even higher than you would otherwise have had, a foolish notion swatted down even by such conservative pundits like Ramesh Ponnuru on the National Review. And those can then nicely cover the costs of war. Yes, in fairytale land maybe.

Down here in the reality-based community, money doesnt just come falling down from the sky. Waging war, slashing taxes AND increasing domestic spending will get you into big trouble, and has gotten you into big trouble over there. There is no bigger, bipartisan, two-generation problem here. You didnt have this under Clinton.

The only bipartisan element to this problem now is the example Bush has set - the lesson his excess poses to the Democrats. In the nineties, when Bill became President, they faced a choice: increasing spending to implement some of those Democratic ideas that had been on hold for a decade and a half? Or balancing the budget first? The Dems chose the latter - put their dreams on hold and decided to first get the finances in order, so the extra expenses could be afforded.

But then, just when Clinton had turned a major budget deficit into a surplus, the Republicans took over - and in no time whatsoever wasted all the financial space the Democratic admin had created - on tax cuts disproportionally favouring the richest, even before any war came round.

So if the Dems win again this time, they'll be asking themselves, whats the point? We save the money and the Republicans spend it on their ideological pet moves when their turn in the WH comes around? F*ck that, let's just first get our policies implemented then.

Thats and only thats when this becomes a bipartisan problem after all. But its origin is pretty clear, and pretty recent. You did still have a surplus under Bill.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Oct, 2007 08:17 pm
And more about the Republican void from President Bush's former speechwriter and senior policy advisor Michael Gerson, in the WaPo:

Quote:
The main candidates took the expected Republican positions in the expected terminology on nearly every economic topic. They support "free and fair trade," believe China must begin "playing by the rules" and want "a freer, fairer, simpler tax code." [..]

Watching the debate, I found myself searching for the unexpected, which came only briefly from the two most interesting Republicans in the race. McCain interjected that climate change is "real and is taking place." And Mike Huckabee interrupted all the talk of government spending by calling attention to Americans "who handle the bags and make the beds at our hotels and serve the food; many of them are having to work two jobs." He predicted that labor unions would "come back in roaring form" because of economic inequities.

The most disturbing moment of the evening proved that Huckabee was pretty much alone in his concern. Giuliani went out of his way to criticize Hillary Clinton's "baby bonds" plan, which would subsidize savings accounts for poor children, beginning at birth. No arguments were offered against the proposal -- just that Clinton was looking for "endless ways to spend."

But it would have been useful for Republicans to confront a large economic fact during their economic debate. [..] About 40 percent of American families don't have enough assets to live above the poverty line after three months if a job is lost.

Creative Democrats and Republicans have been working on this problem for years, proposing matched savings through Individual Development Accounts, or plans that begin accounts at birth and expand through compound interest. Republican Sen. Jeff Sessions has proposed "Plus Accounts" that would stake all American children $1,000, eventually require employer and employee contributions when young people enter the workforce, and lock up savings for retirement.

Assets cause people to plan for the future. Savings accounts teach financial skills. And because savings and ownership build community and responsibility, encouraging them should be an obvious conservative cause.

Instead, during the Republican debate, the idea was dismissed in a partisan attack line, and the audience applauded. This reveals a party that is not effectively speaking to people who handle the bags and make the beds and serve the food -- and who live so close to the edge that one shock can leave them in bankruptcy and ruin.
0 Replies
 
Halfback
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Oct, 2007 10:56 pm
Which, of course, begs the question.... how many of us can truthfully say that they are so far ahead of the eight ball that they could weather a severe financial reverse?

I believe those that can say that truthfully probably constitute less than one third of us. If one takes into account the paucity of actual "savings" these days..... one wonders.

I did some research into the "welfare system" over the weekend and one thing that hit me the most was the percentage of people considered in poverty over the years. In 1959, before the "Great Society", the percentage of people in poverty was 23% (give or take one percent). In the late 60's, with the "war on poverty" in full bloom, it setteled down to around twelve and a half percent and there it has been for nearly fourty years.

I'm beginning to wonder if that figure is the "systemic" figure, rather like the 3-5% of unemployment that is considered normal. In short, apparently, no matter how much money we pump into the cause, that 12 1/2% is going to be there, just as the 12 1/2% of "super rich" is going to always be there. The "Bell Curve" distribution will not be denied nor wished away. It merely adjusts itself.

Halfback
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Oct, 2007 06:11 am
mysteryman wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Halfback wrote:
It does seem inevitable that taxes WILL have to rise, but NOT to the point that they will make up the difference to maintain status quo spending levels! Neither you nor I would tolerate that.

Yeah, the war would have to come to a screeching halt. (I was against this mess from the beginning) There were other ways we could have exacted "pay back" for 9/11, much more "cost effective" to boot.

Yeah, all the feel good programs that are being "promised" by ALL candidates will have to go into a holding pattern until the Congress can get it's house in order.

Did I say this was going to be easy? Hell NO! It's going to take a complete remake of how Congress does business AND a complete remake of how the population requires Congress to act on it's behalf.

I offer this as food for thought. My personal belief is that getting any control on Government Spending is damn near impossible. We are two generations into doing it the way we are. To stand in the way of a population near 300 million all heading in the same general direction.....

Well, sounds like a good way to get trampled to death. Laughing

Halfback


I agree that earmarks have to be brought under control; just not that it's the solution to our money woes.

I think that you fellows seriously underestimate the amount of revenue that a modest increase in taxation would bring in. A 5% rise on the top bracket alone would net hundreds of billions in revenue per year. Combine that with a 1% rise for everyone else, while ending the war and poof - no more deficit.

Combine that with raising the cap from SS payments, along with the retirement age and a modest reduction of benefits over time, and SS lasts for the forseeable future.

Combine that with some sort of single-payer health care plan and our financial situation looks rosier all the time.

Combine this with some actual leadership on renewable energy technology and space utilization and we could be back on top quick enough.

More then anything else, Leadership is what we lack right now.

Cycloptichorn


To be honest, you seem to have "class envy".
You are favoring a 5% increase on the top[ bracket, that means on the rich.

You are aware that the "rich" already pay the lions share of ALL TAXES, including income tax.
Why do you think its ok to raise the taxes on the "rich"?

If you want true fairness, shouldnt the taxes on the rich be lowered to the same rates as everyone else?
Instead of them paying over 50% of all taxes, shouldnt they pay in proportion to how many rich people there are?

By that I mean that if only 15% of the population qualifies as rich, then shouldnt they only pay 15% of the total tax bill?
Or,are you in favor of discriminating against the "rich"?


Our system of taxation was NEVER designed to be "FAIR". Nor should it be "FAIR". A progressive tax system is necessary to eliminate the possiblity of a society of the "haves" and "have not". Our founding fathers were correct when they created the first tax in this nation, currently known as the Estate Tax. Not only do the wealthy have a patriotic duty to re-distribute some of their wealth, you must remember that the STATE provides only limited rights to heirs of the "wealthy" as it should be.

Yet , I find great sorrow when all I read about is increaseing taxes and spending and not one democratic supporter is insisiting on increased oversight and of the Congress to be held accountable for maintaining the budget.

BTW, Clinton passed the LARGEST TAX INCREASE in history as the way to balance the budget and really did not provide oversight. He also was lucky to be President during times of increasing wealth, which turned out be be a false period, ultimately.
0 Replies
 
Halfback
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Oct, 2007 07:01 am
Income Tax: The top 20% income filers pay roughly 80% of the net income tax paid to the Fed. (IRS Figs.)

I always get a chuckle out of the fact that virtually everyone wishes to be rich in this country. Those few who actually "make it" are reviled by the general population who demand that "the rich" give them some of that wealth.

I don't buy into the "stop the war....raise the taxes... and POOF, the deficit is gone" theory of deficit elimination. Congress has shown time and time again the marginal proclivity to use the taxpayer's money wastefully and in projects that sound good going in but do not deliver the advertised results over time.

While I did mention President Clinton did manage to balance the budget two or three years, as against eight years in office, three out of eight won't get him into the playoffs. Laughing (Nor did he use that surplus to "pay down" the National Debt.)

Then you compare the 2 or 3 to nearly 40, it becomes close to being a statistical anomaly. :wink:

A balanced budget MUST be done, otherwise this country is going down. It's really YOUR future I am talking about here. I have a rather limited horizon of "my future", call it 10-20 years. For some of you working stiffs out there it is a hell of a lot longer than that. I've said my piece, expressed my concerns, even suggested an approach toward a start to getting the job done. But YOU are going to have to implement it and keep to it, over a long period of time. There is no "quick fix" to this. Embarrassed

Halfback
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Oct, 2007 02:19 pm
woiyo wrote:
Our system of taxation was NEVER designed to be "FAIR". Nor should it be "FAIR". A progressive tax system is necessary to eliminate the possiblity of a society of the "haves" and "have not". Our founding fathers were correct when they created the first tax in this nation, currently known as the Estate Tax. Not only do the wealthy have a patriotic duty to re-distribute some of their wealth, you must remember that the STATE provides only limited rights to heirs of the "wealthy" as it should be.

Sometimes I really like you, Woiyo Cool

woiyo wrote:
BTW, Clinton passed the LARGEST TAX INCREASE in history

Um. You want to rethink that?

I've posted this link before, but it can't hurt repeating. Under Eisenhower, the top tax rate on regular income was 91%! It was 70% or higher all the way up till Reagan was elected. In comparison, Clinton raised it from 31% to 40%...

Roosevelt raised the top tax rate from 25% to 63% - at once - and then up to 78% and, during the war, 94%. Before that, the top rate both on regular income and capital gains had been raised back in in 1917 from 15% to 67%.

You may think of that whatever you want, but no, it would thus not seem that "Clinton passed the LARGEST TAX INCREASE in history"...
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Oct, 2007 04:37 pm
Calling what the GOP have as "ideas" is like saying that pulling your hand away from fire is an excerise in mental gymnastics.

The GOP functions only in response to stimuli that affect the material enfranchisment of their leaders, whose answer to what they want simply is "more."
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 08:50 pm
Quote:
THE GOP'S FOREIGN POLICY

Moira Whelan notes that none of the Republican candidates in Wednesday's debate so much as mentioned the word "Annapolis":

    Not only that, these guys were allowed to skate by with only sweeping assertions about "radical Islam" and the like. Not a single candidate was asked to address in detail what they would do to address the challenges we face...except to say that we should face them. No policy proposals, no tough ideas, just rhetoric.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Dec, 2007 09:00 pm
Bush signed the largest tax increase into law.

He is hoping that congress will rescue him from it before it takes effect.
0 Replies
 
 

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