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Warrentless Car Searches and Blood/Saliva Collecting?

 
 
Reply Thu 20 Sep, 2007 04:47 pm
I'm putting this in Politics rather than Law since there are serious political issues involved.

About six weeks ago DD's BF went to the airport to pick her up from her job around 9pm. As he approached the front of the terminal he was doing about 30mph in a 25. He stopped to wait for DD and an airport security person approached. Asked if he knew how fast he was going. BF said he didn't know, maybe about 30. Security said "Closer to 45. Can we search your car?"

BF said no, it's not my car. It's my GF's and I'm here to pick her up from work.

Security repeated the request to search and another officer approached.
BF repeated that he does not consent to a search since it is not his car. Second officer says that since he is driving, he has assumed responsibility for the vehicle. BF says that when his GF comes out in a minute she can consent, but that he is not going to do so.

Security asks hims to step out of the car. He does. Second officer starts to search. BF asks if he is under arrest. They say no, step to the back of the car. BF moves to the back of the car and repeats "I have not consented to the search of this car. Are you sure I'm not under arrest?"

They laugh and say they are airport security, they have a lot of important people that come to this airport, and they can do what they want.

Nothing is found, but for a lighter that ask about. "I smoke." says BF.

He's issued a ticket for 40 in a 25 and told that had he consented they probably wouldn't have ticketed him. He went to court yesterday, had it reduced to 26 in a 25 and paid $150 court costs.

Shocked

Today I see this:

Quote:
Highway checkpoint asks drivers for blood, saliva
Travelers outraged by private research group's request

source: WorldNet Dailey



Motorists in Colorado are expressing outrage over a weekend stunt in Gilpin County, about an hour's drive west of Denver, where highway checkpoints were set up so a private organization could ask for samples of blood and saliva.

"I don't think they're authorized to do what they're doing, and I view it as a gross violation of law-enforcement protocol," Roberto Sequeira, 51, told reporters for the Denver Post.

He said he and his wife were "detained" for about 15 minutes even after they protested they wanted to get home because of a sleepy child in their car.

Sheriff's officials were apologizing after they helped set up and run five separate checkpoints over the weekend.

They said workers for the Institute for Research and Evaluation were overly persistent in their demands of innocent travelers.

"It was like a telemarketer that you couldn't hang up on," Under sheriff John Bayne told the newspaper.

Sgt. Bob Enney said the deputies' assistance to the organization involved stopping motorists at the sites along Colorado Highway 119 for "surveys" on any drug or alcohol use. Surveyors also requested that motorists submit to breath, blood and saliva tests.

Enney said several hundred motorists were tested, and some later complained.

Sequeira said he repeatedly asked if the questioners were law enforcement officials and said he was not interested in participating in the study, but still was not given clearance to leave.

He told the newspaper that he and his family were approached by two researchers, and even after his repeated refusals, officials offered his wife, who was driving, $100 to get the couple to take part in a breath test.

"I think it's very dangerous," he told the newspaper. "Sometimes at checkpoints, unfortunate things happen."

PIRE spokeswoman Michelle Blackston told WND the deputies "did not stop" any drivers. "It was a voluntary survey. … Nobody approached them. There were signs saying that a survey was taking place. Nobody waved them down."

She said she was unaware whether the private organization reimbursed the county for the expense of having the deputies at the traffic sites. The organization's own researchers get the results of the work, she said.

Also to the newspaper, PIRE officials defended their actions. They said such statistics are important to gauge the impact of laws and enforcement policy. Their questions began over the summer and will continue at other locations around the nation through November, they said.

"We've been literally surveying thousands of people," John Lacey, of the Alcohol, Policy and Safety Research Center, said. It's through that organization PIRE is doing its research.

He said researchers push a few of those who initially refuse to participate to reconsider - even offering incentives.

"If we don't do that, the criticism will come out that we had so many who were refusers," Lacey told the newspaper.

Bayne said a similar study was done in the county several years ago, with no complaints, but he admitted last weekend's effort was aggressive.

"The people were too persistent," he told the Post. "Some people didn't feel it was voluntary."

Officials with the Colorado chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union said the fact that sheriff's deputies were on the scene, and surveyors wore blue jumpsuits, could have confused drivers.

Sequeira said his family was directed by sheriff's officials to pull over and he and his wife were greeted by "youthful, college" surveyors.

"We had a 10-year-old in the back who's tired, we tell them thanks but no thanks, we have to get this child back home to bed," he told the paper. But the workers persisted, telling them they would be provided help driving home if needed. Then they offered the $100.

"We say, 'No thank you, we have to get our child home,'" he recalled. "At this point, both clones start chortling at us and ridiculing us."

On a newspaper forum, the opinion was running fairly close to unison:

"The very act of pulling a motorist over subjects him/her and their vehicle (at very least) to a visual search. This means if the motorist was pulled over without suspicion of violating a law, than (sic) they have been subjected to an unlawful search…," wrote Warren Gregory.

"For the record the proper response to ANY such incursion into privacy is to ask the question, Am I under Arrest? If the answer is no ask if you are free to go. If you are told no demand to be arrested or you will leave and then leave," added Frank Vicek.


Now, I realize that is sourced as World Net Dailey so I checked further and found And found This, too.

What are people thinking when they consent to this crap? Is this allowed? Was what the airport security did legal? With that many people consenting to blood and saliva collection, is it no wonder we find our country in the condition it is in?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 819 • Replies: 14
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Sep, 2007 05:12 pm
These are two different scenarios. Let's start with the airport.

Airport security are cops? Or no? Since they can issue tickets, the answer would seem to be yes. Since they laughed off the arrest/warrant thing, the answer would seem to be no. It would be nice to have a more definitive answer. The whole thing is weird.

But searching a car without having a warrant has happened before. The courts usually see it as exigent circumstances, e. g. the scene can be driven away or evidence can be pitched or destroyed. As the driver, the boyfriend's got plenty of responsibilities, including, if he was in an accident, proving that there was consent to drive the vehicle. Hence I think that the warrantless search was probably okay although the arrogance of the searching parties with respect to things like arrests and warrants is, at the very least, troubling.

Now for the blood/saliva thing. Ai yi yi the Sheriff's office is a-gonna get sued. And for good reason. Because taking blood is considered an invasive procedure. And probable cause was needed. Even if there was some degree of probable cause, it would have existed for the cops and not the surveying company. And even a small degree of probable cause did not exist because there are other ways of getting information on blood-alcohol content. We call those things breathalyzer tests and they've been around since before I even started Law School, which is over 24 years ago. If a blood draw is required, I believe that the cops have to bring the suspect (because, yep, by then you're a suspect) to a medical facility and have it all done there. I don't believe that that's changed since I was taking Crim. Law and Const. Law so a second opinion would be a good idea. But my understanding has always been that the medical facility, under the request of the cop, is the one that does the blood draw.

Heaven help your Sheriff's Department if someone gets HIV or Hepatitis from one of these needle sticks, or is a Jehovah's Witness and claims their First Amendment rights were being violated. If your Sheriff is elected, he or she might wanna consider resigning over this before facing what should be the wrath of the voters. People should not be apathetic about such things. While the airport stop was unfortunate, and the security people did not behave optimally, it was most likely all according to Hoyle. But the blood/saliva stops for the sake of a surveying company? I may not have practiced law in years but I can smell that one as a 'suit even from here. Civil rights violations, First Amendment stuff, Fourth Amendment stuff, I wish Professor Clarke was still alive, she'd've had a field day with that stuff.

Rest in peace, Esther. You were a great teacher.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Sep, 2007 05:20 pm
The stops happened in Colorado, and are taking place around the country. Evidently, people have to consent to the tests and the blood/saliva is obtained by the not for profit PIRE group which is provided federal grant money to do their work. As pointed out, with officers present, one wouldn't "feel" like it was voluntary.

To me, that gets even murkier!

Here's a Denver Post Link which is the same story as posted at World Net.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Sep, 2007 05:23 pm
this is from our local newspaper from last week (ontario/canada) .
can't provide the exact words - not on internet .

police in eastern ontario have been going around checking the doors of cars in parking lots and driveways - mostly late evening and at night .
when they found the doors were not locked , they would sometimes snoop around and if they would find "contraband" they'd charge the owner (they also checked doors of some houses and sometimes went inside !) .
if they didn't find anything - which was most of the time - , they'd lock the cardoors and leave a notice on the car .

the police said that they were trying to prevent car thefts and break-ins .

they have been SHARPLY rebuked by the judiciary and been told they can NOT search a car or enter a house WITHOUT a warrant unless IN HOT PERSUIT !

the police agreed that their actions were wrong and that they have been stopped !
hbg
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Sep, 2007 06:29 pm
My gosh, What made them think that was appropriate to begin with?

With the BF thing, did he not have a right to refuse a search? I explained that in driving the car he assumes responsibility, including if the car has a headlight out, or bad tires, etc. What gave them the right to search?
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Sep, 2007 06:40 pm
jespah wrote:

Airport security are cops? Or no? Since they can issue tickets, the answer would seem to be yes. Since they laughed off the arrest/warrant thing, the answer would seem to be no. It would be nice to have a more definitive answer. The whole thing is weird.


I dunno. If I were a cop and someone asked me if I was sure that they weren't under arrest I'd probably laugh too. I mean, I think I'd be pretty sure I knew whether or not I had put the person under arrest or not, wouldn't I? Razz

The whole highway thing is just bizzare... and creepy.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 03:42 am
On the BF stop it's hard to say without more facts. Are we talking about a quick smile or are we talking about rolling on the floor laughing. An ironic smile? Eh, whatever? A lot of belly laughing, I dunno, it seems incredibly unprofessional. Not that cops can't be unprofessional at times but that one smells a lot more like you think I'm a real cop, that's hysterical, versus what a dope you are, if you were arrested I'd be telling you about it and you would not make a mistake. Keep in mind, too, that before Miranda vs. Arizona there would be arrests that would not have a clear beginning. You'd go to the police station, answer a bunch of questions (or not) and then once they had something on you, the police would suddenly say that you'd been arrested the entire time and that therefore you'd confessed, versus them just fishing (er, no pun intended) around until they found something to pin on you. With Miranda, there's considerably more clarity between the parties.

hamburger, of course laws are different in Canada but the opening up of car doors and snooping around is way, way, way beyond the pale here. You would (or at least you should) find your badge handed to you, or get a desk job, if you were a cop doing that here.

Essentially -- and this is something that seems to escape a lot of people -- the remedy for bad police work is for there to not be a conviction. E. g. the police do the work poorly and as a result they get nothing out of it, and society gets nothing out of it, and the probable perp walks. A logical corollary to that should be that, for police officers and departments where this happens a lot that either there should be retraining or, in extreme cases, firings. Why pay employees (with tax money) if they consistently fail at their jobs?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 04:57 am
Any search conducted without a warrant, probable cause to believe that there is evidence of a crime, or consent should be illegal.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 05:10 am
Yeah, that's what I thought.

I don't care that they laughed. They obviously were real police since they issued a ticket, he went to court, and paid it... on speeding which was not as high as they said.

I put the two stories together because the Colorado piece ends with:

Quote:
"For the record the proper response to ANY such incursion into privacy is to ask the question, Am I under Arrest? If the answer is no ask if you are free to go. If you are told no demand to be arrested or you will leave and then leave," added Frank Vicek.


Obviously, that doesn't work. BF was asked if he consented to a search, said no, and they did it anyway even when clarifying that he was not under arrest.

The Colorado "voluntary research" stops with assistance from the police (and funding from the government) is taking place around the country. Their goal is to "test" at least 50% of the population in this way.

There are all sorts of implications for drawing blood, roadside without proper medical facilities. I'm shocked that many people are consenting to giving their dna under these conditions.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 05:49 am
I would write a nasty letter to some higher up in the police depeartment. I would write a letter to the editor. And, I would write a letter to the ACLU.

The ACLU might not do anything about one case... but if there is a pattern, they would care.

I also would contest the fine-- especially since it was "punishment" to coerce someone to do something they didn't have to do... it should be easy to contest.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 07:51 am
Interesting aside.

I live in a town with arouund 2000 people so pretty small. leaving keys in cars whilst shopping at the supermarket was a regular occorance.

A police officer decided this was a poor practice so he would patrol the main street and move your car to the other side of the street if you left the keys in it.

It was pretty funny to see people come out of their supermarket and think their car had been stolen.

It had the desired effect.
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 05:38 pm
And what would have happened if that police officer hit a tree while doing that? There's no consent to drive (even with the keys in the ignition and the motor running there would be no consent). His insurance, at least here, would be left holding the bag. He'd very likely lose that auto insurance and would become, let's just say an interesting risk.

I love how the most logical of possible consequences are not thought out in these situations.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 06:17 pm
Did they have a radar gun? How did they know how fast he was going? They didn't have a search warrant so I wouldn't have let them search. I would have contested the ticket on the grounds that they speculated about the speed I was going. If they didn't say I was under arrest, I would not have cooperated.

The BF is young and in a car that wasn't his. He was probably intimidated.

I would also have reported this to the police and the airport authorities.

Just because they can issue tickets does NOT mean that they are police. They are airport security. Our university has what we call Faux Police - or Campus Police who can issue tickets but I don't think they're authorized to search vehicles.

That was clearly an abuse of authority.

I would also have submitted the ticket and court costs to the airport authority for payment.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2007 08:22 pm
I have driven in and out of probably 10 different airports in the last 6 months and every single one of them has said something along the lines of "Due to safety concerns, all vehicles could be subject to search".

I'm sure there's something in the Patriot Act or TSA code that allows it to happen for any reason.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Sep, 2007 06:15 am
squinney wrote:
BF was asked if he consented to a search, said no, and they did it anyway even when clarifying that he was not under arrest.


Here's the United States Supreme Court decision on this issue:

KNOWLES v. IOWA, 525 U.S. 113 (1998)

http://laws.findlaw.com/us/525/113.html

Chief Justice Rehnquist delivered the opinion of the Court.


Quote:
An Iowa police officer stopped petitioner Knowles for speeding, but issued him a citation rather than arresting him. The question presented is whether such a procedure authorizes the officer, consistently with the Fourth Amendment, to conduct a full search of the car. We answer this question "no."
0 Replies
 
 

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