Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

xingu wrote:

But the idea of mass and matter always existing is going to be hard to swallow for all who live in a world in which everything has a beginning and end. I don't think many can comprehend something that has never had a beginning or will never have an end.

It's not just an issue of being 'hard to swallow'.

'Eternal' matter/energy poses an interesting problem regarding entropy, don't you think?

No doubt some will finesse their way around this by asserting that we are 'still early' in eternity, and therefore entropy hasn't yet taken the expected toll.

But 'early' implies a beginning. Not eternal after all. Oooops. Laughing

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USAFHokie80 wrote:

real life wrote:
I like the predictions of the evolutionists better.

Much more entertaining.

Ros told us that evolution 'predicted' that parents would pass on some of their traits to their offspring.

And , amazingly, he was right.

It's just too bad that mankind had to wait until the 19th century for the evolutionary hypothesis to be formulated, so that this prediction could benefit us.

Apparently, prior to Darwin, no one knew that parents passed on some of their traits to their offspring.

lol. so i guess this is your [lame] attempt to derail the current route of conversation...

it's also too bad it took until the 19th century to finally get the religious folk to admit the earth is not at the center of the solar system/universe and that the earth revolves around the sun - not the other way around.

I'm just pointing out that those who claim 'predictive' powers are subject to scrutiny. I've not claimed to 'predict' much of anything.

Do you also think that evolution 'predicts' that parents will pass some of their traits to their offspring?

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Do you apply your limited view of entropy to your imaginary friend? Any logical conundrum alleged against an eternal cosmos can be alleged against an eternal deity.

Do you have any "proof" to advance for creationism, "real life," or are you just up to your usual trick of trying to discredit science rather than establishing the premises of your imaginary friend superstition?

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Setanta wrote:

Do you apply your limited view of entropy to your imaginary friend?

Entropy applies to matter/energy.

God, by definition, is not composed of matter/energy.

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What, in your opinion, is the definition of God?

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real life wrote:

Setanta wrote:
Do you apply your limited view of entropy to your imaginary friend?

Entropy applies to matter/energy.

God, by definition, is not composed of matter/energy.

As Xingu has noted by asking for a definition, you are playing word games. Unless and until we have your definition of "god," we cannot know if that is true. You still have the problem of Occam's Razor--if your imaginary friend can be eternal, why cannot the cosmos itself be eternal, therefore cutting out the middleman?

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real life wrote:

I've not claimed to 'predict' much of anything.

You predict that if I do not believe in Jesus I will burn in hell for all eternity.

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maporsche wrote:

real life wrote:

I've not claimed to 'predict' much of anything.

You predict that if I do not believe in Jesus I will burn in hell for all eternity.

mmmm hm.

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Setanta wrote:

real life wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Do you apply your limited view of entropy to your imaginary friend?

Entropy applies to matter/energy.

God, by definition, is not composed of matter/energy.

As Xingu has noted by asking for a definition, you are playing word games. Unless and until we have your definition of "god," we cannot know if that is true.

Any standard Christian definition of God is based on a Being that is not (and cannot be) made of the same matter/energy which He created.

How could God be composed of what He created? I am sure that you know the Christian view of God is one that views God as 'supernatural'.

I know you may respond that different Christians believe many diverse things.

But I am not aware of ANY Christian group or individual which believes God can be part of what He created, are you?

Setanta wrote:

You still have the problem of Occam's Razor--if your imaginary friend can be eternal, why cannot the cosmos itself be eternal, therefore cutting out the middleman?

Entropy.

Matter/energy is subject to it.

'Supernatural' beings are not.

Occam's razor is not relevant in this discussion because you're comparing apples and oranges.

Hope you are having a great day. I appreciate your willingness to discuss.

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xingu

Quote:

But the idea of mass and matter always existing is going to be hard to swallow for all who live in a world in which everything has a beginning and end. I don't think many can comprehend something that has never had a beginning or will never have an end.

HEy, Im only explaining the problems I have with Big Bangs as a "startup" point. To me , It requires a bit of poofisticism.

Think about the geographic ends of the Universe, where and when is it?

Take some time, try to wrap your mind around the concept of infinity and then state that everything has a start and finish. Our earth , the solar system, the galaxy, all have finite durations based upon conservation of mass and energy. We can roughly calculate how much more sun fuel weve got. But that could be just a drop in the array of multiverses in multi dimensions.

BB is limiting, but it is probably a phenomeno that, by gathering mass from preexisting universes (as membrane hypothesis provides), then the development of heavy elements (at wt >35) can occur in a moment that is more easily explained.

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real life wrote:

But I am not aware of ANY Christian group or individual which believes God can be part of what He created, are you?

Then what the hell was Jesus? Is that not a part of God in HUMAN (god's creation) form?

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real life wrote:

Setanta wrote:
real life wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Do you apply your limited view of entropy to your imaginary friend?

Entropy applies to matter/energy.

God, by definition, is not composed of matter/energy.

As Xingu has noted by asking for a definition, you are playing word games. Unless and until we have your definition of "god," we cannot know if that is true.

Any standard Christian definition of God is based on a Being that is not (and cannot be) made of the same matter/energy which He created.

How could God be composed of what He created? I am sure that you know the Christian view of God is one that views God as 'supernatural'.

I know you may respond that different Christians believe many diverse things.

But I am not aware of ANY Christian group or individual which believes God can be part of what He created, are you?

Setanta wrote:
You still have the problem of Occam's Razor--if your imaginary friend can be eternal, why cannot the cosmos itself be eternal, therefore cutting out the middleman?

Entropy.

Matter/energy is subject to it.

'Supernatural' beings are not.

Occam's razor is not relevant in this discussion because you're comparing apples and oranges.

Hope you are having a great day. I appreciate your willingness to discuss.

So wait, you are saying this being created the universe and then you say that he can't logically be created of the same material that he created... well, if he's so damn powerful, why not? You can't very well say that he is not subject to any physical rules but then say that he IS subject to your small logic. Pick one or the other.

And how do you know supernatural beings are not subject to entropy? And really, I don't see what entropy has to do with any of this anyway...

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maporsche wrote:

real life wrote:

But I am not aware of ANY Christian group or individual which believes God can be part of what He created, are you?

Then what the hell was Jesus? Is that not a part of God in HUMAN (god's creation) form?

Jesus was fully God, and He existed before matter/energy were created.

The fact that He chose to utilize (for a period of time), a body (which He used to communicate with men) does not mean He WAS that body, but rather that He simply made use of it. The body was an instrument.

The few religious groups that actually DO believe Jesus to have been created, also do NOT believe He is God (i.e. JWs, Mormons, and a few others. JWs consider Jesus 'divine', but not God. Mormons teach Jesus was created by a Heavenly Father and Mother).

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real life wrote:

It's not just an issue of being 'hard to swallow'.

'Eternal' matter/energy poses an interesting problem regarding entropy, don't you think?

The word eternal implies a flow of time, something which may not exist outside of our Universe.

"Our" flow of time began with the BB (at least according to our present physical models), and we don't know if/when it will end. So our Universe is not eternal because we know when it began in relation to when we are now.

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farmerman wrote:

genetic drift provides no discontinuity to natural selection. In fact, through gnetic structure, Hardy Weinberg, and adaptive v populational evolution, genetic drift is an explanation for population changes .So it doesnt fight evolutionary theory.

And Dark Matter and Dark Energy and Inflation don't provide any discontinuity to the BB either.

farmerman wrote:

However , "dark MAtter" and "inflation" are problems to BB, in an ever accelerating and expanding universe, the existing mass provided by the BB needs to be supplemented somehow with something that has been mentally created but never really satis(at least to my simple ass mind)fyingly explained.

Most cosmologists don't consider those things to be problems with the BB. Remember, the BB is just a model which states that the Universe came into being at a certain point in the past, and proceeded to expand and evolve as we see around us. The model also specifies certain parameters which we can expect to see, and in many cases we do.

It's fairly common for details (like dark matter, energy and inflation), which add precision to the model. And like most good theories, this one is always tested against observation. And like evolution, it is growing stronger as a theory, not weaker.

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Paul Steinhart and Neil Turoc take issue. I dont profess to be knowledgeable, but Ive sat and listened to afew of the BB/ v STring theory v Membrane Theory.

BB is loaded with math problems, and not the least of which is insertion of dark matter. "DArk Matter" is NOT evidence, its a math construct to answer some basic shortcomings of what can account for the needed mass within the expanding universe.

We agree to disagree.

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real life wrote:

Setanta wrote:
Do you apply your limited view of entropy to your imaginary friend?

Entropy applies to matter/energy.

God, by definition, is not composed of matter/energy.

Neither is the tooth fairy or bugs bunny. They are all imaginary.

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rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Do you apply your limited view of entropy to your imaginary friend?

Entropy applies to matter/energy.

God, by definition, is not composed of matter/energy.

Neither is the tooth fairy or bugs bunny. They are all imaginary.

Are you trying to imply that ANYTHING which is not matter/energy is imaginary?

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real life wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Do you apply your limited view of entropy to your imaginary friend?

Entropy applies to matter/energy.

God, by definition, is not composed of matter/energy.

Neither is the tooth fairy or bugs bunny. They are all imaginary.

Are you trying to imply that ANYTHING which is not matter/energy is imaginary?

No. Just those things. And I could probably think of a few others as well.

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rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Do you apply your limited view of entropy to your imaginary friend?

Entropy applies to matter/energy.

God, by definition, is not composed of matter/energy.

Neither is the tooth fairy or bugs bunny. They are all imaginary.

Are you trying to imply that ANYTHING which is not matter/energy is imaginary?

No.........

So , you KNOW that God is imaginary exactly how?

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Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

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