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Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

 
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 02:21 pm
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
real life wrote:
real life wrote:
If the laws of science (i.e. naturalism) were NOT operative prior to the BB, then isn't the cause of the BB 'supernatural' by definition?

If you define the unknown as being equivalent to the supernatural, then yes.


No, I wasn't.

rosborne979 wrote:
But the unknown is not equivalent to the supernatural, otherwise everything we don't know would be defined as supernatural, and it isn't.

And if you define anything outside of our Universe to be supernatural, then yes..


Again, no I wasn't.

Then what the hell were you implying when you asked:
real life wrote:
If the laws of science (i.e. naturalism) were NOT operative prior to the BB, then isn't the cause of the BB 'supernatural' by definition?

I listed the only two logical implications of your question, and you denied them both.


I indicated nothing regarding whether the laws of science were 'known' or 'unknown' at the time of the BB.

I think we would agree that the laws of science do not come into being when they are discovered by man, the laws were operative all along.

So, were the laws of science (i.e. natural causes) operative prior to the BB?

If your position is that these laws commenced with the 'genesis' of space/time at the point of the BB, then whatever caused such to commence is by definition 'supernatural', as it operated outside of and prior to natural causes.


There is a limit to the things we can know, and I think that the knowledge of the pre-BB physical laws is one of them.

In either case, our not knowing does not make the cause of the bang supernatural. That is the entire point that you fail to grasp.

Our lack of understanding does not equate to the supernatural!

I'm not sure how much more clearly it can be stated. Your claim is based on the supposition that we currently know and fully understand EVERY PHYSICAL LAW. Which is another thing that is impossible to know. So while we cannot guarantee that the cause of the bang was not supernatural, you also cannot possibly prove that it was.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 04:35 pm
"ANY SUFFICIENTLY COMPLEX SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPAL IS INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC"--
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 05:40 pm
Whenever I see these Creationists remarks (plants can live a day without light) or visit their websites (T. rex's ate coconuts) I can't help being reminded of this quote;

"They never open their mouths without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge."
Thomas Brackett Reed
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 05:44 pm
real life wrote:
I indicated nothing regarding whether the laws of science were 'known' or 'unknown' at the time of the BB.

We were talking about before the BB, not at the time of the BB.

real life wrote:
I think we would agree that the laws of science do not come into being when they are discovered by man, the laws were operative all along.

When things are discovered has nothing to do with it. The BB didn't mark the discover of the laws of physics, it marks the boundary of our physical world.

real life wrote:
So, were the laws of science (i.e. natural causes) operative prior to the BB?

Our physics and natural world are bounded by the BB. We don't know what came before, or outside of, the BB. There may be similar physics in effect "our there", or there may be something totally different. We don't know.

real life wrote:
If your position is that these laws commenced with the 'genesis' of space/time at the point of the BB, then whatever caused such to commence is by definition 'supernatural', as it operated outside of and prior to natural causes.

We've been through this already. This is the same thing you said before, and I answered it, and the answer is still the same: the Unknown is not equivalent to the Supernatural (and you agreed). Stop asking the same question over and over again if you don't bother to try to understand the answer you got.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 06:17 pm
As Ive been pretty bold to state that I was never a big fan Of Big Bangs. It always required matter to be compressed within a mass , a "singularity, and inflation.
Inflation of the singularity was always an "add-on" to a big bang theory just in orer to explain the distribution of matter within a universe that had to invent "dark matter". Paul Steinhart and NEil Turocs "colliding membrane" concept makes much more sense in the way that we can almost envision our own series of 5 discernable dimensions embedded within about 7 other dimensions. Like flopping carpets the already existing series of multiverses would flap about like araura and everyso often (in Universal time scales) they touch, repel, and expand their respective matters , thus giving the extents of cosmic radiation we see, a cosmic "birthday " that is accurate for our visible universe, a calculable source of dark matter (it flows in from the colliding membranes,and ,(To me at least) yields a much more comforting sense of what goes on in the other realms reaching to infinity.

Im no great shakes at multidimensional analyses and only had a couple of courses in cosmo topology and MDA, so Im an admitted layman in all this "cosmic startup story"and Im imbued with a need to feel comfortable with all these "Theories" that we toss around like handballs.

Ive read stuff by Steinhart and he readily admits that their math leads them where theyre at and they dont really understand what realitylooks like on the silver screen.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 07:34 pm
Despite the shortcomings of the modern BB theory, it's been an extremely accurate model, even predicting the distribution of light elements and fluctuations in the CMBR long before they were confirmed by observation.
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maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Nov, 2007 07:39 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
Despite the shortcomings of the modern BB theory, it's been an extremely accurate model, even predicting the distribution of light elements and fluctuations in the CMBR long before they were confirmed by observation.


Extremely accurate after the first few seconds from what I understand, but I need to refresh myself on that topic.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 08:39 am
Well, maybe 'extremely accurate' is a relative term.


Quote:
Astronomers Find Enormous Hole in the Universe[/b]


Astronomers have found an enormous hole in the Universe, nearly a billion light-years across, empty of both normal matter such as stars, galaxies, and gas, and the mysterious, unseen "dark matter." While earlier studies have shown holes, or voids, in the large-scale structure of the Universe, this new discovery dwarfs them all.


"Not only has no one ever found a void this big, but we never even expected to find one this size," said Lawrence Rudnick of the University of Minnesota. Rudnick, along with Shea Brown and Liliya R. Williams, also of the University of Minnesota, reported their findings in a paper accepted for publication in the Astrophysical Journal.

Astronomers have known for years that, on large scales, the Universe has voids largely empty of matter. However, most of these voids are much smaller than the one found by Rudnick and his colleagues. In addition, the number of discovered voids decreases as the size increases.

"What we've found is not normal, based on either observational studies or on computer simulations of the large-scale evolution of the Universe," Williams said................


from http://www.nrao.edu/pr/2007/coldspot/
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 09:08 am
real life wrote:
Well, maybe 'extremely accurate' is a relative term.

Just for comparison -- how accurately did Intelligent Design Theory predict this hole?
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USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 09:59 am
Thomas wrote:
real life wrote:
Well, maybe 'extremely accurate' is a relative term.

Just for comparison -- how accurately did Intelligent Design Theory predict this hole?


Shocked
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 11:30 am
real life wrote:
Well, maybe 'extremely accurate' is a relative term.

Everything is a relative term to some degree, but the BB did predict the basic structure of the CMBR which was later confirmed by the WMAP observations. That original structure implied that there would be large 'holes' in the resulting Universe.

So, like Thomas asked... how did the talking-snake theory do at predicting these things? Was it "relatively" accurate?
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 12:45 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
The BB ....marks the boundary of our physical world.

Our physics and natural world are bounded by the BB.


Hmmm. Ok.




rosborne979 wrote:
We don't know what came before, or outside of, the BB. There may be similar physics in effect "our there", or there may be something totally different. We don't know.



Sounded like you were pretty sure a moment ago.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 01:05 pm
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
The BB ....marks the boundary of our physical world.

Our physics and natural world are bounded by the BB.


Hmmm. Ok.




rosborne979 wrote:
We don't know what came before, or outside of, the BB. There may be similar physics in effect "our there", or there may be something totally different. We don't know.



Sounded like you were pretty sure a moment ago.



Those two quotes are not contradictory.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 02:04 pm
maporsche wrote:
real life wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
The BB ....marks the boundary of our physical world.

Our physics and natural world are bounded by the BB.


Hmmm. Ok.




rosborne979 wrote:
We don't know what came before, or outside of, the BB. There may be similar physics in effect "our there", or there may be something totally different. We don't know.



Sounded like you were pretty sure a moment ago.



Those two quotes are not contradictory.


I wonder why he didn't quote the question about the predictions made by ID... RL doesn't seem to have a comment about that. Hmmm...
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 08:47 pm
I like the predictions of the evolutionists better.

Much more entertaining.

Ros told us that evolution 'predicted' that parents would pass on some of their traits to their offspring.

And , amazingly, he was right.

It's just too bad that mankind had to wait until the 19th century for the evolutionary hypothesis to be formulated, so that this prediction could benefit us.

Apparently, prior to Darwin, no one knew that parents passed on some of their traits to their offspring.
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Nov, 2007 09:53 pm
real life wrote:
I like the predictions of the evolutionists better.

Much more entertaining.

Ros told us that evolution 'predicted' that parents would pass on some of their traits to their offspring.

And , amazingly, he was right.

It's just too bad that mankind had to wait until the 19th century for the evolutionary hypothesis to be formulated, so that this prediction could benefit us.

Apparently, prior to Darwin, no one knew that parents passed on some of their traits to their offspring.


lol. so i guess this is your [lame] attempt to derail the current route of conversation...

it's also too bad it took until the 19th century to finally get the religious folk to admit the earth is not at the center of the solar system/universe and that the earth revolves around the sun - not the other way around.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2007 03:43 am
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Despite the shortcomings of the modern BB theory, it's been an extremely accurate model, even predicting the distribution of light elements and fluctuations in the CMBR long before they were confirmed by observation
. Things like "Inflation", singularities, and "dark MAtter" are all afterthoughts created in concept to make the BB more workable in fact. So it is a theory, but, like all theories, it must be robust enough to withstand challenges of evidence, thats why "Membrane theory" is appealing. It adapts to the basic evidence of BB, but doesnt require as much twisting of events at the very beginning.


real life
Quote:
It's just too bad that mankind had to wait until the 19th century for the evolutionary hypothesis to be formulated, so that this prediction could benefit us.


When we suffer from centuries of wrong-headed dogma as an explanation of life on earth, the proposal of Darwin would naturally appear to be iconoclastic. ,but since science isnt democratic, the gradual "acceptance" of "descent with modification" had to occur only as evidence began piling up.
Scientists who were bold enough to admit that Biblical legend doesnt cut it , especiallyfor scholarly research into the biology of species, were slowly researching the obscure evidence and noticing that everything fit DArwin and nothing fit Genesis.

Its also too bad that we had to wait for Phylo Farnsworth so we could have "Seinfeld". The Egyptian Middle Kingdom would have enjoyed some good TV also, and all those Roman roads would have been neat all covered up with MiniCoopers.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2007 06:45 am
farmerman wrote:
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Despite the shortcomings of the modern BB theory, it's been an extremely accurate model, even predicting the distribution of light elements and fluctuations in the CMBR long before they were confirmed by observation
. Things like "Inflation", singularities, and "dark MAtter" are all afterthoughts created in concept to make the BB more workable in fact. So it is a theory, but, like all theories, it must be robust enough to withstand challenges of evidence, thats why "Membrane theory" is appealing. It adapts to the basic evidence of BB, but doesnt require as much twisting of events at the very beginning.

The basic tenets of the BB were unchanged by adding those things. Just like adding Genetic Drift to biological evolution didn't change the core tenets of Darwin's theory.

The only "Membrane" theory I'm familiar with ("M"-brane) relates to conjecture about the origin of the BB, not anything which is happening inside it. Do you have a link to the membrane theory you are referring to? I would like to read more about it.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2007 07:03 am
genetic drift provides no discontinuity to natural selection. In fact, through gnetic structure, Hardy Weinberg, and adaptive v populational evolution, genetic drift is an explanation for population changes .So it doesnt fight evolutionary theory.

However , "dark MAtter" and "inflation" are problems to BB, in an ever accelerating and expanding universe, the existing mass provided by the BB needs to be supplemented somehow with something that has been mentally created but never really satis(at least to my simple ass mind)fyingly explained.

There is much arm waving in cosmology (Go ask one, they talk with their hands a lot)

What happened just before BB is a big problem to BB . Membrane theory, on the other hand, incorporates all the cosmic fireworks of BB but adds additional evidence, math, and provides a few more more explanations for some of the things that BB cant provide us without employing some magic.

I therefore feel that Big Bang fits within the core of a more wrap-around theory that , so far, looks like , maybe we may have to accept that mass and matter were already there, all were looking for is a method that it was resdistributed in the creation of our personal universe.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2007 08:37 am
But the idea of mass and matter always existing is going to be hard to swallow for all who live in a world in which everything has a beginning and end. I don't think many can comprehend something that has never had a beginning or will never have an end.
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