Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

I think the only evidence you will get from them is the Bible. They can't find any evidence in science to support the Bible myth.

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hi Wilso,

I guess the first question I would have is --

---what type of 'natural' evidence would you accept of (what is supposed to be) a 'supernatural' event?

Isn't this the same old 'show me a miracle, and then I'll believe' ?

xingu,

Why are you afraid of using the Bible as evidence?

If your position is 'well , it's in the Bible', let me remind you that NONE of the books of the Bible were 'in the Bible' when they were written.

The practice of publishing the separate books under one cover was not until many years later.

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real life wrote:

Isn't this the same old 'show me a miracle, and then I'll believe' ?

This evidence was given to the apostles....why not us?

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I remember a muslim guy posting pictures of whales and volcanoes and the like, and saying that these were islam's miracles. Confused

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Re: Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

Wilso wrote:

Post your EVIDENCE. Not gaps in scientific knowledge.

Interesting that you mention gaps.

Evolutionists often state:

'Well, we may not know HOW evolution occurred. But we just KNOW that it did.'

Would you accept the same reasoning from a creationist? And if not, why not?

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Quote:

xingu,

Why are you afraid of using the Bible as evidence?

If your position is 'well , it's in the Bible', let me remind you that NONE of the books of the Bible were 'in the Bible' when they were written.

The practice of publishing the separate books under one cover was not until many years later.

So??

You still have not come up with any evidence for Creationism. You never will because none exists.

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xingu wrote:

Quote:
xingu,

Why are you afraid of using the Bible as evidence?

If your position is 'well , it's in the Bible', let me remind you that NONE of the books of the Bible were 'in the Bible' when they were written.

The practice of publishing the separate books under one cover was not until many years later.

So??

You still have not come up with any evidence for Creationism. You never will because none exists.

I'd be interested to hear you answer the question I asked Wilso--

---what type of 'natural' evidence would you accept of (what is supposed to be) a 'supernatural' event?

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Re: Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

real life wrote:

Wilso wrote:
Post your EVIDENCE. Not gaps in scientific knowledge.

Interesting that you mention gaps.

Evolutionists often state:

'Well, we may not know HOW evolution occurred. But we just KNOW that it did.'

Would you accept the same reasoning from a creationist? And if not, why not?

Because there's no empirical evidence for Creationism. There's only two accounts in the Bible, both contradictory, leading to the assumption that they're not meant to be taken literally.

The topic of this thread was "Don't tell me there's no evidence for evolution". Evidence was provided. There exists a mechanism for evolution. You stated yourself on the very first page, that it was possible for microevolution to occur.

All that macroevolution requires is a series of microevolutions. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, to prevent these series of microevolutions from occurring. There are transitional fossils to prove that macroevolution has occurred.

A new species of mosquito has been seen to have evolved.

Byrne, K. and R. A. Nichols, 1999. Culex pipiens in London Underground tunnels: differentiation between surface and subterranean populations. Heredity 82: 7-15.

Cichlids in Lake Malawi and Lake Victoria have diversified into hundreds of species. Parts of Lake Malawi which originated in the nineteenth century have species indigenous to those parts.

Schilthuizen, Menno., 2001. Frogs, Flies, and Dandelions: the Making of Species, Oxford Univ. Press, esp. chap. 1.

Creationism has none of this evidence. It makes claims that are not testable. Therefore, they are not scientific claims. There is no scientific merit to Creationism.

Evolution is the only acceptable scientific explanation for how species arise. Now, as for life, it's a bit iffy. We can apply evolutionary principles to the origins of life. So, it's not as strong as the argument for origin of species? So what? There's nothing else stronger than Evolution! Creationism? Not scientific. Not testable.

The only way you can prove Creationism to be true, is to get God down here, give him a truth serum to ensure he doesn't lie (just to be on the safe side) and ask him, did you create all life as described in the Bible?

You can't prove Creationism by disproving Evolution, because then we can insert all manners of strange explanations in to replace it. I mean, Scientology. What's up with that?

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Re: Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

real life wrote:

Evolutionists often state:

'Well, we may not know HOW evolution occurred. But we just KNOW that it did.'

Would you accept the same reasoning from a creationist? And if not, why not?

Of course -- if you they backed up their claim with similarly compelling evidence as evolutionary biologists found in the geological record, the distribution of species over the world, morphology, and the pattern of genetical similarities and differenes between species. As Wolf points out though, there is no evidence for creationism that even begins to approach this quality.

real life wrote:

I'd be interested to hear you answer the question I asked Wilso--

---what type of 'natural' evidence would you accept of (what is supposed to be) a 'supernatural' event?

Wilso can answer for himself, but for me, rabbit fossiles in a Jurassic stratum would be an excellent start.

But don't let my preferences constrain you -- what kind of evidence for supernatural phenomena have you got?

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Re: Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

Thomas wrote:

real life wrote:

---what type of 'natural' evidence would you accept of (what is supposed to be) a 'supernatural' event?

Wilso can answer for himself, but for me, rabbit fossiles in a Jurassic stratum would be an excellent start.

hi Thomas,

Even if a living dinosaur were produced on live TV today, evolutionists would not allow this as disproving evolution.

They would simply say 'hmmm , I guess these things survived longer than we thought. But they still evolved.'

Evolution is not falsifiable is it?

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Re: Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

There's only two accounts in the Bible, both contradictory, leading to the assumption that they're not meant to be taken literally.

Show how they contradict.

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

You stated yourself on the very first page, that it was possible for microevolution to occur.

Not so.

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Re: Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

real life wrote:

Even if a living dinosaur were produced on live TV today, evolutionists would not allow this as disproving evolution

They would simply say 'hmmm , I guess these things survived longer than we thought. But they still evolved.'

Quite possible.

real life wrote:

Evolution is not falsifiable is it?

As I already said: Rabbit fossils in a Jurassic stratum would do it -- and so would dinosaur fossils in a pre-Cambrian one. More generally, if evolutionary biology is correct, species can survive longer than evolutionary biologists think. But they cannot have arisen much sooner than they think. Hence, any fossil that appears "much too early" (think hundreds of millions of years) would be strong evidence against evolution.

I answered your question, now would you please answer mine? What evidence for creationism do you think you have?

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real life wrote:

xingu wrote:
Quote:
xingu,

Why are you afraid of using the Bible as evidence?

If your position is 'well , it's in the Bible', let me remind you that NONE of the books of the Bible were 'in the Bible' when they were written.

The practice of publishing the separate books under one cover was not until many years later.

So??

You still have not come up with any evidence for Creationism. You never will because none exists.

I'd be interested to hear you answer the question I asked Wilso--

---what type of 'natural' evidence would you accept of (what is supposed to be) a 'supernatural' event?

If there was some evidence for your supernatural story, such as evidence that all creatures that ever existed lived at the same time, together, at some point in the past or the world is very young than I think there would be some consideration for the Bible story. But there is no evidence for such and you can't produce any. You only try to shoot holes in whatever evidence supports evolution and cannot present any that supports the Bible myth. Since no such evidence exist and you can't produce any than your Creationism and IDisms are false; rubbish.

As you said you believe in the supernatural. Anyone can create supernatural stories. The Greeks and Romans did it with their religion as the ancient Jews and did with theirs. If your going to believe the ancient Jewish creation myth than why not the creation myths of the American Indians? They're just as valid in that there is no evidence to support them. All evidence that exist refutes your supernatural myths.

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maporsche wrote:

real life wrote:
Isn't this the same old 'show me a miracle, and then I'll believe' ?

This evidence was given to the apostles....why not us?

The apostles did not have the complete bible; but that is besides the point.

What makes you so special?

Jesus refused to perform a miracle for Herod.

Do you see the connection?

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xingu wrote:

. . .
If there was some evidence for your supernatural story, such as evidence that all creatures that ever existed lived at the same time, together, at some point in the past or the world is very young than I think there would be some consideration for the Bible story. But there is no evidence for such and you can't produce any. . .

The six days of creation are not to be taken as literal 24 hour days. This is evident from the words at Genesis 2:4 which lumps the entire time into one 'day'. Additionally, the seventh 'day' has not yet been recorded as having ended.

Since the creative days may properly be called 'times' or 'epochs' or 'eras', or whatever word pops your cork, it is obvious that some species may have been long extinct by the time Adam and Eve were created.

You love to promote the straw man perpetrated by sophomoric religionists, that the earth is believed to be 6000 years old. Well, you would have to be equally sophomoric to believe that is what the bible actually says.

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Re: Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

Thomas wrote:

real life wrote:
Even if a living dinosaur were produced on live TV today, evolutionists would not allow this as disproving evolution

They would simply say 'hmmm , I guess these things survived longer than we thought. But they still evolved.'

Quite possible.

real life wrote:
Evolution is not falsifiable is it?

As I already said: Rabbit fossils in a Jurassic stratum would do it -- and so would dinosaur fossils in a pre-Cambrian one. More generally, if evolutionary biology is correct, species can survive longer than evolutionary biologists think. But they cannot have arisen much sooner than they think. Hence, any fossil that appears "much too early" (think hundreds of millions of years) would be strong evidence against evolution.

I answered your question, now would you please answer mine? What evidence for creationism do you think you have?

I doubt seriously that any out of place fossils would falsify evolution in the minds of it's adherents. They would simply re-date the strata in question.

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Re: Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

real life wrote:

Show how they contradict.

Genesis 1 Order of creation...
1. Light and darkness
2. Water and sky.
3. Land and seas. Vegetation
4. Light in the form of sun and moon.
5. All other living creatures, except man.
6. Man and woman.

Genesis 2: Order of Creation...

18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

Genesis 2:18-19. NIV

18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Genesis 2:4-8 KJV

Man first, then animals. I haven't even gotten to the bit where God takes a rib out of Adam to create Eve, despite the fact that in the first Genesis account, they were made at the same time.

And even if they aren't contradictory, merely poorly worded so that it's possible to interpret it my way, you still have to prove that it isn't a whole bunch of lies.

Whenever an evolutionary scientist comes up with evidence, you then state, well, how do we know the piece of evidence isn't a fluke or falsely interpreted or just plain wrong? You check the methodology and the logic. You then try to construct a new experiment to disprove his evidence. If you fail, it's genuine. If you succeed, it's not.

How will you do that with Creationism? Proving Noah's Ark existed doesn't prove the Genesis accounts of creation correct, only that Noah's Ark existed.

You have to prove that there was such a place as Eden, that there is such a thing as God (and you cannot prove or disprove his existence due to the way he has been defined), that Adam and Eve existed, that we all descended from them, that all animals as they are, have existed throughout all of history.

So, yes, you need to find a rabbit fossil from the earliest stratum available. Or maybe not a rabbit. Any present day mammal would do.

Wolf_ODonnell wrote:

You stated yourself on the very first page, that it was possible for microevolution to occur.

Not so.[/quote]

You're right. You said that microevolution is a far cry from macroevolution. (I posted in the wrong thread). Do you even deny that microevolution exists?

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Re: Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

real life wrote:

I doubt seriously that any out of place fossils would falsify evolution in the minds of it's adherents. They would simply re-date the strata in question.

In that case, you probably haven't studied evolutionary biology very much.

But again, don't feel constrained by my preferences. What evidence do you think you've got?

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xingu wrote:

such as evidence that all creatures that ever existed lived at the same time, together, at some point in the past ......than I think there would be some consideration for the Bible story.

What do you think of cave paintings, carvings , etc of dinosaurs? How did 'ancient man' living just tens of thousands of years ago have any knowledge of dinosaurs that lived (and died out) tens of millions of years ago?

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Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

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