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Don't tell me there's any proof for creationism.

 
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2008 11:28 am
Well, Shira, apparently, pretzels have a religious significance to the Catholics... which figures.
0 Replies
 
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2008 05:03 pm
If you added "free" before pretzels and "and beer" after it, you'd have an instant catholic on your hands.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2008 09:22 pm
Shirakawasuna wrote:
real life wrote:
Shirakawasuna wrote:
real life wrote:
hi Joe,

The reason I describe the 'singularity' as supernatural is because it fits the definition.


Quote:
Main Entry:
su·per·nat·u·ral Listen to the pronunciation of supernatural
Pronunciation:
\ˌsü-pər-ˈna-chə-rəl, -ˈnach-rəl\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- + natura nature

2 a: departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature



What else would you call something that is not subject to the physical (natural) laws of the universe, something you have no evidence ever existed, and something of which you do not know the composition, properties or origin?

It's supernatural.



There's this new term I liked to use instead of fail: pinnacle of incompetence.

Congratulations! To the list of fallacies implied, add equivocation to the list. "Laws of nature" is not the same as "laws of physics".

Naturally, given your misinterpretation of the definition, any sufficiently strange thing would fit, which is clearly different from the idea of the supernatural in science. Why not check the definition for (1) instead, since it fits that usage more closely? Oh, you mean it wouldn't confirm your biases? OK then, we need to protect that ignorance so please ask me some incredulous questions instead.

By the way, if you take the fourth definition of "religion", it fits the idea of a hobby you really like, like knitting. Let's use that one, eh? How's your knitting errr, I mean Christianity going?

real life wrote:

But I don't seriously expect the self-professed 'scientific' types on A2K to admit this anytime soon. Most of them are too invested in bashing the supernatural to see that they play in the same yard.


And no one should expect you to give substantive responses, given what I've seen in the short time I've been here. You make quite an impression of irrational obstinance Wink.

Let's do a short comparison: 1) supernatural in the form of untestable, unobservable claims with a bunch of anthropomorphization slopped on top vs. 2) supernatural of a very general (and not excluded by science, due to its generality + lack of irrationality) nature, in which you are including the singularity of the Big Bang (which I'll note is always considered an inference from the model and not directly observed), a model which has been repeatedly confirmed by observation.

For 1) you have faith and apparently a huge pile of fallacies to rationalize away objections.

For 2) we have tentative support qualified by acknowledging that it's also an inference without direct observation.

Just in case the message didn't get through, if a singularity follows any kind of rules whatsoever, it has some of that "laws of nature" going for it.


'Tentative support', eh? Smile

What scientific evidence do you have that a singularity actually existed?

NOT 'coulda existed outside the bounds of the physical laws of the universe'[/u] , NOT 'mighta existed in alternate universes we imagine coulda been'[/u].

Scientific evidence supporting actual existence of a singularity.

There is none.

And when you further admit, as you have, that a singularity was not or may not have been subject to the natural physical laws of our universe, then it is clearly a supernatural (not a natural) explanation of the origin of the universe that you are proposing.

You and FM object to the word 'supernatural' because in some contexts (some subdefinitions) it refers to a deity, but really it is the word that fits this situation. Your objection is like saying the Sun cannot be a 'star' because it doesn't fit each and every definition of 'star'. Smile

Well it's been fun. Take good care. Looking forward to a fun and busy summer. My best wishes for all A2Kers. Cool


The vagueness of dictionary definitions often implies generality which leads to misleading results - you've chosen the least common definition in order to forward some nonsense and you've even had to equivocate in order to do so.


I referenced the subdefinition that fits.

That's why words have more than one definition.

----------------------

Well, on to summer. My opportunities to play around on A2K and post after this weekend will be somewhat sketchy due to the rollout of several big projects.

Take good care and I'll be checking in occasionally, though this thread seems to see little action if I'm not around.

Maybe it'll give you time to think of a reasoned response instead of insisting that I should use an inappropriate definition.

'vagueness of dictionary definitions'..... Laughing nice try.

See ya later.
0 Replies
 
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2008 11:44 pm
real life wrote:
I referenced the subdefinition that fits.

That's why words have more than one definition.


Duh, I never said it doesn't fit. Never. So, how's your light hobby of religion going? I hope it's as much fun as my regular pretzel eating, which is also a religion.

As the regular overeating of pretzels is a religion, hurting oneself via the overconsumption is a religion. Being unhealthy is a religion. Sleeping is a religion. And in that same sense, a singularity is supernatural. Congratulations on using the least common and vague definition, one which technically fits, but very obviously distorts the meaning when stated that way.

real life wrote:
'vagueness of dictionary definitions'..... Laughing nice try.


LOL, have fun with your light hobby of Christianity, then.
0 Replies
 
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jun, 2008 11:49 pm
Let's play some more fun with equivocation sophistry!

The word "metal" can mean ": mettle 1a b: the substance out of which a person or thing is made".

Therefore, the sentence "metal is goo" is accurate. After all, I'm sure you're made of some goo, some nice albumin in those cells.

Perhaps I should start a company, teaching people how to get rid of this metal from their bodies. I'll tell them, "you're full of metal!" No one likes metals in their body! Of course, I'm just telling them that they're full of the stuff they're made of, but hey this is implicit equivocation, right? I'm applying the definition correctly, aren't I?
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2008 12:38 pm
Don't bother with this retard, Shira.

Like all Creationists, he redefines words so as to twist reality to his own delusional viewpoints. In fact, it is necessary for a doubleplus good doublethinker like RL.

Singularities are described by Einstein's Theory of General Relativity, RL. They are predicted for, and hence, can be found if one has the technological expertise to do so. Singularities have a set definition... infinitely small, infinitely dense. They bend space-time in a set manner. All you have to do is search for an area of space that is distorted in the way GR predicts and search in that area.

Supernatural entities, however, will never be proved true or false, thanks to the way they have been defined. God is one of those things. He has been defined as beyond the natural world.

Singularities, however, have been defined as something that occurs in our natural universe through natural laws (or rather, scientific theories). The maths shows that they exist. All you have to do is prove they exist.

No mathematic equation proves God exists. There is no way to go about proving that he exists. Ergo, he is supernatural.

Supernatural is something that is not of this world. Singularities are of this world.
0 Replies
 
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2008 02:06 pm
Yes, if we're using the common/scientific version of the word "supernatural", you are completely correct. If we're using the "metal=mettle" version, real life is correct. But stupid. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
WimG
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jun, 2008 07:38 am
How creationism would have been more acceptable by the scientific community:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qymoktf0wY
0 Replies
 
bigdog279
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2008 04:51 am
If the world was created by a big explosion, everything would have been a mess. Someone must have put everything in order. If not, why is it that we live in the third planet, the perfect location from the sun. And why is it that we have body parts in the best place they could be? The arms are aligned, skin covers the whole body, and stuff like that... Also, how come cycles occur? The water cycle for one. Everything couldn't have been all a coincidence...
And just to note it, nothing among those things were Bible based...
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2008 05:02 am
welcome big dog
Quote:
Also, how come cycles occur? The water cycle for one. Everything couldn't have been all a coincidence...

Ya know, Ive always wondered about the wash cycle and rinse cycle. They both occur in order and precede the dry cycle.
0 Replies
 
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2008 06:37 am
bigdog279 wrote:
If the world was created by a big explosion, everything would have been a mess.


Not necessarily. After all, the explosion you'd be referring to in terms of the genesis of the earth is the last time our sun went supernova. Since you've started with using science, let's continue and list the general idea of earth's formation, where that cloud of light gases and heavier elements coalesces due to gravity, bits attaching to bits and so on, some of it gaining kinda sorta stable orbits and bashing into other things until we get a nice earth-shaped ball of rock and metal. This might sound a bit unlikely - look at all all the stuff that must've been reabsorbed into the sun at the center! - but then again look at the relative size of the earth. Now, with this explanation of gravity, we already have an explosion that results in a nice earth-sized ball of 'stuff', so hopefully that answers your first point.

bigdog279 wrote:
Someone must have put everything in order.


Hmm, why?

bigdog279 wrote:
If not, why is it that we live in the third planet, the perfect location from the sun.


Good question. The simple answer is: the anthropic principle. Now, it isn't necessarily the case, but it's enough to make the argument from fine tuning look a bit silly. If you'd like you can look it up on Wikipedia or something along those lines, but the anthropic principle basically goes like this: if it were any other way, would we exist? If not, there is no situation in which we'd be around to remark at these things which does not include apparent small probabilities.

bigdog279 wrote:
And why is it that we have body parts in the best place they could be?


Well, we don't. Our eyes are pretty stupid, for example, and have irritating blind spots. Wikipedia the term "blind spot", you can do an experiment with your computer to find it! Octopuses, their line having evolved a complex and successful eye independently, have no such problem. We eat and breath through the same hole (essentially). That means inevitably some of us are going to choke (I've stolen this from Neil deGrasse Tyson). Dolphins have no such problem. Another example stolen from Tyson: genitalia. Ours our stuck down between our legs, connected straight to the waste disposal systems! To paraphrase/editorialize, it's like sticking an amusement park right in the middle of a sewage treatment plant! Tough to appreciate the genius there if we're gauging this by apparent human desires. Another common example of bad design is the recurrent pharyngeal nerve, which loops all over the place in your neck. It's one of those things that points to an evolutionary path plagued by contingency and adaptation, not a well-thought-out design.

Now, these are all arguments against the "hey, aren't we designed great?" ones and do not automatically constitute arguments against God (a very vague concept) Himself or that kind of thing.

bigdog279 wrote:
The arms are aligned, skin covers the whole body, and stuff like that...


Yes, and now it might be time to look into "natural selection", which is a good explanation for truly adaptive traits. Now, there is certainly exaption and contingency, but you don't want to get overwhelmed Wink. Let's just say that skin confers some definite advantages, so it's kept around in the population (and changes depending on the creature or what geological time period we're looking at!). As with apparent adaptive traits, this is a bit more complex as well, but you get the idea.

If you're interested in body plans, you might want to look up the Cambrian Explosion (from a decent resource, not a creationist one) and evolutionary developmental biology for some very interesting stuff.

bigdog279 wrote:
Also, how come cycles occur? The water cycle for one.


So far as the water cycles goes, I don't know - it's something that just seems to happen and I don't know if there's any biotic causes or significant relationships that led to such a cycle. When comparing the earth to other planets, we have quite a bit of water, so it's not too crazy. And if you compare our weather to say that of Venus, the earth's distribution of chemicals through the atmosphere looks like weak sauce.

bigdog279 wrote:
Everything couldn't have been all a coincidence...


If by coincidence you mean without God or some designer figure, why not? Look at all that we discover in the patterns of nature, the causal relationships we can tease out. Where there often used to reside ignorance (and "designer" as a placeholder explanation), we now have very good answers. When man had no idea of his place in the universe, the heavens were a beautiful tapestry and we invented all kinds of interesting stories with attributed divine causality, etc. And we noticed the regularity of the stars, the cycles. Then we were able to tease out the information about the planets of our solar system, and then the idea that the earth was not at the center, and now we can see not just other planets, not just other stars, but entire galaxies, all operating in what appears to be magnificent fashion. Before, this was a tapestry attributed to the divine. Which is more accurate? (both are beautiful)

bigdog279 wrote:
And just to note it, nothing among those things were Bible based...


No complaints here! Wink
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2008 06:48 am
bigdog279 wrote:
If the world was created by a big explosion, everything would have been a mess.

Unless the explosion also resulted in natural forces which offset randomization. And it did. Those forces exist.

bigdog279 wrote:
Someone must have put everything in order. If not, why is it that we live in the third planet, the perfect location from the sun. And why is it that we have body parts in the best place they could be? The arms are aligned, skin covers the whole body, and stuff like that.

Biological systems evolve to match their environments. Our planet isn't in the perfect position for us to live here, we simply evolved to fit the conditions this planet offered. The same process explains all the other "coincidental" design functions.

bigdog279 wrote:
Also, how come cycles occur? The water cycle for one. Everything couldn't have been all a coincidence...

Why is it coincidence that there is a water cycle? What does it coincide with that is surprising to you?
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2008 07:03 am
The answers above perfectly illustrate the most significant point. Only in the light of evolution does the natural world make sense. The alternative is to attribute it all to an ever more fantastic series of miracles.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2008 10:13 am
bigdog279 wrote:
If the world was created by a big explosion, everything would have been a mess.


Why?

Quote:
Someone must have put everything in order.


What makes you think "everything" is "in order?"

Quote:
If not, why is it that we live in the third planet, the perfect location from the sun. And why is it that we have body parts in the best place they could be? The arms are aligned, skin covers the whole body, and stuff like that...


"Stuff like that" arises as adaptation to the conditions which prevail. Life did not arise on planets for which the conditions were inimical, and any creature which had limbs in the wrong places, or insufficient skin to cover the internal organs didn't last long enough to reproduce.

(Do you really need things that simple explained to you?)

Quote:
Also, how come cycles occur? The water cycle for one. Everything couldn't have been all a coincidence...


With what do you allege these "cycles" coincide? How do you know these are "cycles?" Does it not occur to you that you are asking about your explanations of events and circumstances which are not dependent upon your ability to describe them?

Quote:
And just to note it, nothing among those things were Bible based...


Apart from outrageous delusion, i know of nothing which is "bible-based."
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2008 10:14 am
I know, i know . . . everyone else already did it . . . but i wanted to have my fun, too . . .
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2008 04:56 pm
Setanta wrote:
I know, i know . . . everyone else already did it . . . but i wanted to have my fun, too . . .

The replies are basically the same, but the styles are different.
0 Replies
 
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2008 07:04 pm
*votes for himself anyways* Very Happy

Some nice replies, there. I'll also add that the anthropic principle works wonderfully concerning arguments for design/God from the water cycle.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jun, 2008 07:13 pm
Shirakawasuna wrote:
*votes for himself anyways* Very Happy

Smile Yes, of course.

I'm sure each of us will prefer our own styles, otherwise we wouldn't use them. But the question is, which one (if any) will the BigDog relate to the best?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2008 05:03 am
that little episode of "team teaching" was as subtle as a tank rolling over a Hostess Twinky.

Thats all I can add Laughing
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2008 09:22 am
Uh.

Welcome to the forum Big Dog.

Usually, this place is more fun.

Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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