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What about incest?

 
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 03:53 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
The statistics from the same source I used above.
28 % of all rapes and molestations were an intimate
and 7 % another relative.


How are those statistics relevant to this discussion? They indicate that many cases of rape are cases of incest, but not that many cases of incest are cases of rape.

Quote:
Legalizing incest would not differentiate between consensual and non-consensual, it would be considered legal, for a father or brother to
overpower their daughter/sister, believing it were consensual.


Who would consider that legal?! We're talking about the daughter/sister being over the age of consent. And we're talking about "no" meaning 'no', as it does with ordinary sex. If anyone were to overpower anybody against their will, and have sex with them, that would be considered rape. Why would we make an exception for fathers and daughters?

Quote:
The pain from legalizing incest would be so much greater than the
pleasure only a few would benefit from. For the protection of the
greater population, incest cannot and never should be legalized.


I'm not saying we should make incest compulsory. The few that want to engage in it would be able to, and those that find it unpleasant can choose to avoid it. Cases of rape or coersion would be dealt with as they normally are in non-incestous cases. Where's the pain?
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 03:58 pm
dlowan wrote:
Mind you, the "ick" factor is doubtless there for good reason.....genetically speaking, and child protectionally speaking.


Yes, but you could say the same about homosexuality. Remember that I'm talking about incest where contraception is used, and no childbirth is allowed. It's not worth the risks.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 04:24 pm
agrote wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Mind you, the "ick" factor is doubtless there for good reason.....genetically speaking, and child protectionally speaking.


Yes, but you could say the same about homosexuality. Remember that I'm talking about incest where contraception is used, and no childbirth is allowed. It's not worth the risks.



How does homosexuality carry a genetic risk?


I don't really have a personal ick factor about consensual adult incest, but I agree with Soz that it is an area where it is difficult to feel sure about true consent where there is some kind of inherent power difference. However, I am taking your question as a thought experiment, and, as I said, I don't have a problem re truly consenting adults.


Interestingly, Woody and Soon Yi's situation brought up all the same concerns, but there was no technical incest, and the marriage was legal
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 04:36 pm
As has been noted, this is a taboo that probably predates humanity (e.g., mice show a strong natural inclination to outbreed).

As a taboo necessary to preserve genetics, it may refer to an age which is largely historical at this point in human history. In a small village, it is important to encourage outbreeding, because it is difficult and inbreeding is easy. Most of the people in the world today don't have much trouble finding a mate outside their family, so encouraging outbreeding by prohibiting inbreeding isn't really necessary. As deb noted, mice have been shown to be naturally driven to outbreed, and I believe similar studies have been carried out in humans (e.g., a pillowcase scented with somebody of more unrelated genetic stock is more arousing than carrying the scent of a close relative).

Still, it is pretty icky.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 04:37 pm
dlowan wrote:
agrote wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Mind you, the "ick" factor is doubtless there for good reason.....genetically speaking, and child protectionally speaking.


Yes, but you could say the same about homosexuality. Remember that I'm talking about incest where contraception is used, and no childbirth is allowed. It's not worth the risks.



How does homosexuality carry a genetic risk?


I meant that the 'ick' factor for homosexuality may be there for a 'good reason' in terms of evolution, since it doesn't lead to reproduction. I saw an interview with Peter Singer where he suggested that taboos over homosexuality and bestiality (and maybe even paedophilia, but perhaps not) may have an evolutionary basis. We may have evolved to have contempt for sexual practices that do not lead to reproduction, and therefore do not benefit survival of the species. I don't know whether that's true, but it's plausible.

Quote:
I don't really have a personal ick factor about consensual adult incest, but I agree with Soz that it is an area where it is difficult to feel sure about true consent where there is some kind of inherent power difference. However, I am taking your question as a thought experiment, and, as I said, I don't have a problem re truly consenting adults.


Yes, good good, I realise that.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 04:47 pm
patiodog wrote:
As a taboo necessary to preserve genetics, it may refer to an age which is largely historical at this point in human history. In a small village, it is important to encourage outbreeding, because it is difficult and inbreeding is easy. Most of the people in the world today don't have much trouble finding a mate outside their family, so encouraging outbreeding by prohibiting inbreeding isn't really necessary. As deb noted, mice have been shown to be naturally driven to outbreed, and I believe similar studies have been carried out in humans (e.g., a pillowcase scented with somebody of more unrelated genetic stock is more arousing than carrying the scent of a close relative).


Breeding isn't an issue anyway, if we're talking abotu sex for its own sake (with contraception). I'm not in favour of incestuous childbirth.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 05:33 pm
"Incestuous childbirth" conjures up unspeakable images.

Actually, they are speakable, and were spoken by South Park's Cartman in The Aristrocrats....
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 05:42 pm
I just found this: http://incestgirls.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2007-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=42

I'm afraid it's very icky. But it suggests that brothers and sisters quite often have relationships which are normal in many respects, and which are consentual and unmanipulative. They even say they're in 'love'! (*shudders*) So perhaps legalisation would benefit more people than we might assume.
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Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 05:51 pm
It doesn't need to be legalized. People will do what they will regardless of any law. Legalization would sanction it, and I personally don't think there's any reason to sanction it.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 06:16 pm
Well, the more important thing is that the taboo is lifted and the attitudes of society change. If two people are in love, or even if they just want to have a bit of harmless sexual fun, I don't think they should be made to feel dirty. As it stands, I suspect that these people are made to feel like they're doing something 'sick', which isn't very fair.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 06:21 pm
Re: What about incest?
agrote wrote:
Is there any reason why incestuous relationships between consenting adults (not including ones that lead to pregnancy) should not be allowed?


To take us back to the original question:

the consenting adults of the question do not exist unless:
they are in some post-nuclear fiction
or some fantasy of some other isolation
- ie. shipwrecked brother and sister find love and happiness on uncharted isle.

If they do exist in a society of other adults, one would have to question their social skills if they only able to find sexually attractive partners at their own home address.

It would make a good novel though:

Scenario 1: Middle aged woman assists her much younger, though fully adult, socially inept brother into honing his sexual skills while reaping the benefits of an orgasmic life. They playact at dating. He grows in confidence and begins to date other women with his sister's encouragement. A) Later, she finds that she cannot cope with him venturing out with other females and plots a revenge. or B) He marries a beautiful young woman and his sister goes on with her life and marries a Republican Senator.

Scenario 2: Middle-aged brother, 43, divorced for over ten years, and three years younger sister, also divorced but for less time, five years or so, find themselves living in a two-bedroom apartment in New York. Both have tried and failed at the singles scene so many times that it is no longer a laughing matter. One night he hears her using a vibrator. Some time later, when they are both a little drunk, he asks her about it. She offers to share it. Things happen. They are careful. They are able to live this way for many years.
They never marry.

Joe(people they know alway sense something is awry.)Nation
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 06:46 pm
btw that blogspot site agrote linked is nothing but a porno site in masquerade.

All the individual posts are practically screaming "I am written by the same person".

Joe(no fooling the faker)Nation
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Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Sep, 2007 07:23 pm
agrote wrote:
Well, the more important thing is that the taboo is lifted and the attitudes of society change. If two people are in love, or even if they just want to have a bit of harmless sexual fun, I don't think they should be made to feel dirty. As it stands, I suspect that these people are made to feel like they're doing something 'sick', which isn't very fair.


Slippery slope - next thing you know, they'll be allowed to have kids together.
0 Replies
 
Kratos
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 02:22 am
The incest blog reads like fiction with a bunch of random pictures tossed in to provide a facade of authenticity. Did anyone else notice that the writing style looks pretty much the same for all the entries? If they aren't all fake, then the host must be editing all submissions to correct for grammar and/or to spice them up a bit.

As it relates to consenting adults, I can stomach the brother-sister thing more than I could the father-daughter thing because I can't help but feel that the latter is far more likely to have involved some level of sexual abuse or lesser form of exploitation.
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agrote
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 02:46 am
The blog might be fake, but I don't think you can be sure of that. This (non-fictional) newspaper article discusses whether consensual incest is possible: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4331603,00.html

It refers to a couple of cases of apparently non-dysfunctional, consentual incest.
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cyphercat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 11:02 am
The blog is pretty clearly fake...one of the writer's attempts at having a different "voice" was just to use me for my-- like, "then I realized I love me Daddy" -- which was pretty funny. Laughing what an awful site! that's some of the cheesiest erotica I've ever read...

BTW, Joe, I like your scenarios, but you're gonna have to hire the "Incest Girls" person to write it for you. I'm afraid you could never come up with lines like this little gem from that blog: "And our sexual moans were so loud!"
0 Replies
 
Coolwhip
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 12:01 pm
No **** it's fake! haha!

Quote:
First our brothers made love to us for a little bit, then they swapped and we each got a turn with our cousins. The four of us climaxed together, with our cousins!


My God, why don't we all try incest! Very Happy
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patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 02:13 pm
Ummmmm....... Have you met my cousins?
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 02:31 pm
the bearded ladies? well, you can't be too picky, you don't get to choose your family. guess you're stuck with them.
0 Replies
 
agrote
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Sep, 2007 02:50 pm
cyphercat wrote:
The blog is pretty clearly fake...one of the writer's attempts at having a different "voice" was just to use me for my-- like, "then I realized I love me Daddy" -- which was pretty funny. Laughing what an awful site! that's some of the cheesiest erotica I've ever read...

BTW, Joe, I like your scenarios, but you're gonna have to hire the "Incest Girls" person to write it for you. I'm afraid you could never come up with lines like this little gem from that blog: "And our sexual moans were so loud!"


Yeah... I feel quite stupid to fall for that. Oh well. The newspaper article is real, anyway. My point still stands: happy incest couples do seem to exist.
0 Replies
 
 

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