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Ghosts??? Or???

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 08:56 am
I will grant that anything is possible, even the supernatural.

I will not go so far. Its counter factual and anything supernatural implies the "divine". The phenomena of apparitions exist and have been filmed and recorded by dispassionate observers. Like other laws, we just havent caught up to it yet.

No gods need apply,(unless your life has a hollow point that needs some deity to fill it up)
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 09:03 am
baddog1 wrote:
Quote:
It's not whether or not I like the explanation, it's whether or not the explanation adequately explains the phenomenon. There are many many cases where there isn't an adequate explanation. If more than one person experiences the same thing, lets say several people, how likely is it that they are all suffering from the same perceptual distortion?


Like - errrr - God? Shocked


What is God? What phenomena does God adequately explain?
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 09:20 am
FreeDuck wrote:
baddog1 wrote:
Quote:
It's not whether or not I like the explanation, it's whether or not the explanation adequately explains the phenomenon. There are many many cases where there isn't an adequate explanation. If more than one person experiences the same thing, lets say several people, how likely is it that they are all suffering from the same perceptual distortion?


Like - errrr - God? Shocked


What is God? What phenomena does God adequately explain?


Quote:
It's not whether or not I like the explanation, it's whether or not the explanation adequately explains the phenomenon. There are many many cases where there isn't an adequate explanation. If more than one person experiences the same thing, lets say several people, how likely is it that they are all suffering from the same perceptual distortion?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 09:21 am
Is that your definition of God? The unknown? If God equals the unknown then, congratulations, you've just proven that God exists.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 09:37 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Is that your definition of God? The unknown? If God equals the unknown then, congratulations, you've just proven that God exists.


God is as equally known or unknown as ghosts - depending on your emotionally-based position. :wink:
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 09:56 am
Have any of you seen the TV show "Supernatural"? My daughter worked for 2 years as a production assistant on that show. One of her duties was replying to e-mails from fans. She thought it was sad that some people take "evil spirits" seriously.

(I am not plugging the TV show. My daughter currently works for a different TV show.)
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 10:01 am
baddog1 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Is that your definition of God? The unknown? If God equals the unknown then, congratulations, you've just proven that God exists.


God is as equally known or unknown as ghosts - depending on your emotionally-based position. :wink:


I don't get where you're going. Are you asserting that God is an explanation for certain unexplained phenomenon or are you saying that God is an unexplained phenomenon?
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 10:15 am
FreeDuck wrote:
baddog1 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Is that your definition of God? The unknown? If God equals the unknown then, congratulations, you've just proven that God exists.


God is as equally known or unknown as ghosts - depending on your emotionally-based position. :wink:


I don't get where you're going. Are you asserting that God is an explanation for certain unexplained phenomenon or are you saying that God is an unexplained phenomenon?


I'm saying that if a person believes that the existence of ghosts are possible, probable, factual - then (due to the standards of proof as determined by those same persons) the existence of God is at least equally as possible, probable, factual.
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 10:20 am
wandeljw wrote:
Have any of you seen the TV show "Supernatural"? My daughter worked for 2 years as a production assistant on that show. One of her duties was replying to e-mails from fans. She thought it was sad that some people take "evil spirits" seriously.

(I am not plugging the TV show. My daughter currently works for a different TV show.)


Hi wandeljw.

Yes, my daughter & I watch "Supernatural" as often as possible and we've wondered aloud if people write in about the theme. (And the various thoughts & beliefs...) Thanks for the input and kudos to your daughter for sharing w/you and you w/us.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 10:27 am
Thanks, baddog. Below is a photo my daughter sent me. She is on one of the sets used for last year's "season finale".

http://photo.ringo.com/222/222078242RL966644849.jpg
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 11:02 am
baddog1 wrote:

I'm saying that if a person believes that the existence of ghosts are possible, probable, factual - then (due to the standards of proof as determined by those same persons) the existence of God is at least equally as possible, probable, factual.


I think you misunderstand what I've been saying.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 03:05 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Quote:
I will grant that anything is possible, even the supernatural. But is it reasonable to put unknown natural phenomena higher on the probability list than known natural phenomena which simply haven't been identified yet.


Known but unidentified is equivalent to unknown in my opinion.


There's a difference between saying:

* "I don't know, but I think it's something mundane"
and saying
* "I don't know, but I think it's something extraordinary"

FreeDuck wrote:
Quote:
Without physical evidence, the number one natural possibility on the top of the list is human error and perceptual distortion. Most people may not want to accept this, but it's easily a higher probability than unknown natural phenomena.


Really? How do you measure such a probability? How do you know that one is more probable than the other?


To me, the mundane is always more probable than the extraordinary.

Otherwise , extraordinary claims wouldn't require extraordinary evidence. But they do.

FreeDuck wrote:
I think this is something you'd have to take on a case by case basis. Certainly sometimes a "ghost" might actually be a creaky floor on a windy night. But in cases where there are audible directional footsteps? Where people have seen ghostly images?


I agree that to discuss this much further we will probably have to be more specific.

We have each stated our basic general philosophy regarding the 'unknown'. Beyond that we will have to start comparing our interpretations of 'evidence' to determine our levels of skepticism over empirical data.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 03:18 pm
farmerman wrote:
The phenomena of apparitions exist and have been filmed and recorded by dispassionate observers.

I guess I'm unconvinced of this.

I would need to know the exact definition of apparition before I could decide what exactly had been filmed or recorded.

For example, there are lots of photo's of "Orbs" or "sprites" in graveyards on the Internet. And yes, they have been filmed. But what they are is dust motes illuminated by the flash. Still, many people claim that the "sprites" are entities in the graveyard.

There are countless examples of things which have been filmed which are simply aspects of the film or lens or something. Chaiyah used to think that lens flares were rogue planets.

So just because something has been filmed doesn't mean it's what someone says it is.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Sep, 2007 03:24 pm
baddog1 wrote:
I'm saying that if a person believes that the existence of ghosts are possible, probable, factual - then (due to the standards of proof as determined by those same persons) the existence of God is at least equally as possible, probable, factual.

Definitions are going to become necessary here.

In order to agree or disagree with the statement above, we would need to know your exact definition of God and of Ghost.

FM (and I think Freeduck) are arguing that "Ghost" to them is not a supernatural thing, but simply a natural but extraordinary thing.

Do you include your version of God in the same category?
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Sep, 2007 08:56 am
rosborne979 wrote:

In order to agree or disagree with the statement above, we would need to know your exact definition of God and of Ghost.

FM (and I think Freeduck) are arguing that "Ghost" to them is not a supernatural thing, but simply a natural but extraordinary thing.

Do you include your version of God in the same category?


Ros:

No, there is no need to know my exact definition of ghost and/or god. Fm and freeduck provided their parameters for the existence of 'ghost(s)' and I reference those parameters below.

Fm wrote: "I will not go so far. Its counter factual and anything supernatural implies the "divine". The phenomena of apparitions exist and have been filmed and recorded by dispassionate observers. Like other laws, we just havent caught up to it yet".

It is not counter factual and whether or not anything supernatural implies the "divine"
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Sep, 2007 09:32 am
baddog1 wrote:
Quote:
Given the claim by so many on here that God is 'supernatural', not scientifically proven, etc.; thus does not exist - and rightly using the same standards of proof for ghost(s) [supernatural, not scientifically proven to exist - how can anyone believe that ghosts exist?


I don't claim that God does not exist because God has yet to be defined. Science can't prove whether or not something exists if it remains undefined. In the case of ghosts we have a widely experienced phenomenon which some people explain as ghosts -- spirits of dead people remaining on earth. I am suggesting that the explanation for that phenomenon is something natural but not yet understood. What phenomenon does a concept of God explain?
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cyphercat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Sep, 2007 10:26 am
Bathsheba, are you going to give us updates if you have any? I didn't mean for my story to sound like I'm totally skeptical or anything, I'm personally hoping you don't find an explanation... it's much more exciting that way Very Happy (and don't worry, renters will love a house with atmosphere!)
0 Replies
 
baddog1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Sep, 2007 10:50 am
FreeDuck wrote:


OK - I better understand your position on the different experiences and see where you're coming from. There are reports of various personal experiences that people have had w/God. A recent report by member Bartikus can be seen here: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=101944&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

As to "what is God"; that topic has been hashed out on here for years. I feel the answer is subjective, usually personal and can always be dissected by those who choose to. As is the case for any emotion-based position.


Quote:
I don't claim that God does not exist because God has yet to be defined. Science can't prove whether or not something exists if it remains undefined. In the case of ghosts we have a widely experienced phenomenon which some people explain as ghosts -- spirits of dead people remaining on earth. I am suggesting that the explanation for that phenomenon is something natural but not yet understood. What phenomenon does a concept of God explain?


Several concepts. Faith, guidance, observance, discipline, imagination, hope, and so on.
0 Replies
 
echi
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Sep, 2007 05:21 pm
baddog1 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
In the case of ghosts we have a widely experienced phenomenon which some people explain as ghosts -- spirits of dead people remaining on earth. I am suggesting that the explanation for that phenomenon is something natural but not yet understood. What phenomenon does a concept of God explain?


Several concepts. Faith, guidance, observance, discipline, imagination, hope, and so on.
baddog-
Do you believe that God is part of nature? Or do you believe that God created nature?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Sep, 2007 05:35 pm
Quote:
Several concepts. Faith, guidance, observance, discipline, imagination, hope, and so on.
.. So on and so on annd so on. Nothing here is forensically valid, testable, or falsifiable. All available evidence on manifestations can be tested AGAINST standards. If they fail, then they are debunked and not valid. Thnereby honing the remaining available evidence to a very few observations.
Most Universities that still maintain parapsych depts (and yes there is an ever decreasing mass of them), try to handle it as an observational science .
Princeton still maintains the dialogues of Einstein and colleagues regarding time being place and interdimensional ytravel is time travel. Everything is in mathematical formulae and proofs that , although Ive seenthem preserved on newsprint at the Sarnoff Center , I freely admit to having a deep non-understanding of these sets of symbolic logic.
0 Replies
 
 

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