WATERSOFTENER: Fleck 5600 vs Master

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Our Kenmore is dead--RIP! I hate to put a new one in as the cost has risen quite a bit and they tend to last 5 years or so. Culligan wants $1300 for a system and that is a tad high for our budget and besides, I likley could go through 2 Kenmores for that price.

I did some research on the web and a lot of folks are reccomending a Fleck 5600 or 5600se system. The problem is that no one in my area installs / sells these.

I called our plumber. He will install anything we buy. Better yet he has a line he uses that he claims should go 15 years with no problems, perhaps longer. Its $900 installed. I asked if it had fleck parts and did not seam to know. He said he essentially sends a water sample in and then installs and sets up the unit based on info returned from the company. He said it was a: MASTER brand?

Anyone ever hear of this or can provide any suggestions. I could have the FLeck 5600se sent to my home and have him install it. But if MASTER brand is just as good why bother.

We have 2 adults, 2 kids, 2 baths and a 2200 sq ft home. The water company says the water id 10 -11 GPM in our area.

So, buy the fleck and have him install it (not sure what warranty issues I have in that scenario) Buy another Kenmore? Buy this: MASTER unit? Other?

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Re: WATERSOFTENER: Fleck 5600 vs Master

andrelaplume wrote:

I could have the FLeck 5600se sent to my home and have him install it.

That sounds like a good plan Smile

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master/fleck
Gary,

I appreciate the quick repsonse. I am in ALlentown PA and having problems finding a place who sells and installs fleck.

We have had our plumber for years and trust him. You are correct though, he feels comfortable with this MASTER brand but does want to let MASTER do the water analysis and make a sytem reccomendation. Yea, it would be better if the treatment specialist did all this I guess, but at least he is honest enough to admit he leaves those decisions to MASTER. (Sears just asks how many people are in your house and points to one of three softeners!)

So my question is this. I have heard Fleck and Autocontrol were what to look for. They were supposedly far superior than Kenmore and cost about the same. it sounds like the CLACK is even better. My questions are:

1) What brands us CLACK?
2) How do they price out comapared to Kenmore, HD, Lowes?
3) I had enough trouble finding FLeck in my area, if I can not find Clack, can I go wrong with this Master system. Do they break down often? A rebuild after 15 years does not sound bad to me unless that would cost as much as a replacement but needing service more often might be an issue. If you could not get clack what would you get-fleck, autocontrol, other?

My plumber says the job will run $900 regardless of the system reccomended, He likely bases that on the fact he already knows our house size, number kids, baths etc and lives in the area and is familiar with the water. In fact I'd guess he knows the size to install but still insists on sending a water sample in.

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gary
I realize the clack is a supped up / improved fleck but the 5600 was affordable for us...not sure what model would use clack (maybe 5600?) so the model would help or, pricing could be helpfull to.

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Clack is just a valve - you need a complete softener.

Is there an independent dealer in your area that sells, installs and services
water softeners with Fleck control valves? Those with SE controls are best.

Consumers are best served by full service independent H2O companies.

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wish I could find an indy dealer
Gary,
You are not too far away, know any good dealers in Allentown?

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Andre, you need to learn much more about softeners before you buy one unless you want to totally rely on someone to do it all for you and simply write checks made out for whatever amount they tell you to.

That is the most expensive way to go, the best and least expensive is to educate yourself and then DIY. If you want to be a DIYer and save substantial money and get a very high quality correctly sized softener for your family size, water quality and peak demand use, check out he sizing chart page on my web site and call me.

If you don't want to install it yourself, your plumber can install it. Or any other plumber you can find in the yellow pages etc..

Big box store brands are not good softeners and usually start having problems in 2-5 years. The parts are expensive and service is also.

Autotrol, Clack, Erie and Fleck control valves are much higher quality.

There should be a number of independent water treatment dealers in Allentown. Look under the heading Water in the yellow pages, call the dealers that don't have a brand name in their ad; they are independents.

BTW, what size softener is he suggesting for $900 including installation?

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Gary Slusser wrote:

Big box store brands are not good softeners and usually start having problems in 2-5 years. The parts are expensive and service is also.

This is true, and 2-5 years is generous. Two years is more like it.

Good luck ~

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DIY
Ha! DIY! Well, there are many things I CAN do myself but I have been banned from anything related to plumbing ever since I went to replace the guts of a toilet, started by turning the handle to shut the water near the bottom of the toilet and having it snap off in my hand! Thank god I knew where the water main was! Though the thing was in our old home and likley 50 years old...that did not hold much weight with my wife...who had to wait several hours untill we found a plumber to fix it. I won't even mention the time I was hanging a mirror in a half bath and drilled into the vent pipe! So..I'll be paying more for this install. I would however like to minimize future service visits / failures by purchasing a quality affordable system. Culligan is too expensive at $1300. Kenmore will likley be dead in a few years.

I am not sure the size of the system. My plumber said he sends the water to: MASTER and have it checked and they would let him know what the settings should be. Maybe they tell him the system size? He does know us, our home etc. Could you determine a system size knowing there are 2.5 baths, 2 sdults, a child, a 2200 sq ft house and water wardness between 10 and 11 GPM? I figure its is between a 32K and 40K system. I guess I should find out, maybe $900 is a bad price...or a good one.

I did find another 'speacialist' who quoted $950 over the phone for a system with Fleck parts...said there were only 3 moving parts. It was not a 5600SE. I gave him the same info regarding house size, number of people etc. No one has ever heard of this company. They may be fine but I know I can count on my plumber....

I will try the website again---could not find you link the first time.

Gary Slusser wrote:

Andre, you need to learn much more about softeners before you buy one unless you want to totally rely on someone to do it all for you and simply write checks made out for whatever amount they tell you to.

That is the most expensive way to go, the best and least expensive is to educate yourself and then DIY. If you want to be a DIYer and save substantial money and get a very high quality correctly sized softener for your family size, water quality and peak demand use, check out he sizing chart page on my web site and call me.

If you don't want to install it yourself, your plumber can install it. Or any other plumber you can find in the yellow pages etc..

Big box store brands are not good softeners and usually start having problems in 2-5 years. The parts are expensive and service is also.

Autotrol, Clack, Erie and Fleck control valves are much higher quality.

There should be a number of independent water treatment dealers in Allentown. Look under the heading Water in the yellow pages, call the dealers that don't have a brand name in their ad; they are independents.

BTW, what size softener is he suggesting for $900 including installation?

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Re: DIY

andrelaplume wrote:

Ha! DIY! Well, there are many things I CAN do myself but I have been banned from anything related to plumbing ever since I went to replace the guts of a toilet, started by turning the handle to shut the water near the bottom of the toilet and having it snap off in my hand! Thank god I knew where the water main was!

You are not alone. Only a tiny % of people are willing and able to install and service there own H2O treatment system.
The full service independent H2O company is your friend.
I sell and install the Fleck 2510SE control valve. My customers love them.
See if you can find yourself a local dealer that can install a softener with a metered 2510SE valve.

Good luck.

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website / install
Gary, I click the above link and it takes me here:
Edit [Moderator]: Link removed

Not sure what to do at that point....

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Found YOU!
I googled your name, found your site and calculations. So, you think if I could determine the size system I need and ordered a system, my plumber could install it and we could get it set up right? How does this affect warranty issues? Service?

My alternative is to use a local place I just found. I may have them out for an estimate and see exactly what I am getting and if they size the system etc. If they do not, I might as well order a Fleck system and have my plumber install it and save a couple hundred bucks.

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Gary
It did not take me to your site. I googled your name and found your site though!

So, after I do those calcs, how does that tell me what system I need or does that just assist in setting up ANY of the softeners to most efficiently work for my situation? Ex: If I bought the Fleck 5600SE, my plumber installs it and sets it up. These calcs you have allow me to fine tunes it? By the way, I figured the FLeck 5600SE was they way to go based on what I have read here and there. Does that have the Clack control?

My plumber did not get specific with the MASTER/autotrol unit...just said $900; installed. I have no idea what he would charge to install a unit, he just said he would. I would hope if I bought a $500 unit it would not $400 to install...if so I might as well just use his unit.

Thanks, I need to ponder all this!

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ok guys...
I am going to look around for a water treatment installer in the area and see what they get. If I can't find one I'll have to order one and get my plumber to install it. Thanks for the advise!

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AGry--Thanks---Sizing Chart
Gary,

After all the info you provided on the forum I figured the least I could do
was try your sizing chart.

My total grains of capacity came to: 21,120. My SFR came to a little over 10 (I know I should measure the water more exactly). I got this by holding a gallon container under an outside spicket for 6 seconds. It appeared to fill a bit more than the gallon. I was surpised the water pressure outside seams greater than inside. Anyway, if I did the equation corectly thats a little over 10 SFR. So does that mean I should look for a control valve that can handle over 10 SFR and a tank thats about 9 cu ft with at least a 21K capacity?

I guess a 30K capacity for allow for future growth in the family (I do not
think I have seen anything much smaller) but a 40K - 48K capacity is
overkill and a waste of money?

Gary Slusser wrote:

Andre, you need to learn much more about softeners before you buy one unless you want to totally rely on someone to do it all for you and simply write checks made out for whatever amount they tell you to.

That is the most expensive way to go, the best and least expensive is to educate yourself and then DIY. If you want to be a DIYer and save substantial money and get a very high quality correctly sized softener for your family size, water quality and peak demand use, check out he sizing chart page on my web site and call me.

If you don't want to install it yourself, your plumber can install it. Or any other plumber you can find in the yellow pages etc..

Big box store brands are not good softeners and usually start having problems in 2-5 years. The parts are expensive and service is also.

Autotrol, Clack, Erie and Fleck control valves are much higher quality.

There should be a number of independent water treatment dealers in Allentown. Look under the heading Water in the yellow pages, call the dealers that don't have a brand name in their ad; they are independents.

BTW, what size softener is he suggesting for $900 including installation?

0 Replies

Re: AGry--Thanks---Sizing Chart

andrelaplume wrote:

Anyway, if I did the equation corectly thats a little over 10 SFR. So does that mean I should look for a control valve that can handle over 10 SFR and a tank thats about 9 cu ft with at least a 21K capacity?

Not the control valve but you need the correct volume of resin for the SFR...

According to Gary Slusser you will need 1.25 cu ft of resin for 10gpm SFR

According to a factory Rep for Purolite (the people who make the resin) the recommended highest service flow rate for C100 is 5 gpm per cubic foot of resin. The recommended lowest service flow rate is 1 gpm per cubic foot of resin.

From Purolite "the resin can be run faster that our recommended flow rates but pressure drop is higher and hardness leakage is higher".

So, according to Purolite, you need a softener with 2.0 cu ft of C100 resin for 10gpm SFR

Quite a difference in opinion... who do you believe?

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Re: AGry--Thanks---Sizing Chart
So who do YOU believe. My guess is I will never even see this info when the specialists come out and if I ask they may think I am nuts. Of course if I know what I should have, I guess it will be comforting to know they sold me the roght thing.

SO. the 5600 is or is not for me...

***
Fleck 2510SE electronic metered demand regenerated 1.5 cubic foot (48K) softener using Purolite C-100e resin in a 10" x 54" Strutural Fibers tank with a 1.05" distributor tube and a 1" stainless steel or Noryl by-pass valve, including a Fleck float controlled 2310 safety brine system in a 15" x 17" x 36" brine tank with a grid.
**

justalurker wrote:

andrelaplume wrote:
Anyway, if I did the equation corectly thats a little over 10 SFR. So does that mean I should look for a control valve that can handle over 10 SFR and a tank thats about 9 cu ft with at least a 21K capacity?

Not the control valve but you need the correct volume of resin for the SFR...

According to Gary Slusser you will need 1.25 cu ft of resin for 10gpm SFR

According to a factory Rep for Purolite (the people who make the resin) the recommended highest service flow rate for C100 is 5 gpm per cubic foot of resin. The recommended lowest service flow rate is 1 gpm per cubic foot of resin.

From Purolite "the resin can be run faster that our recommended flow rates but pressure drop is higher and hardness leakage is higher".

So, according to Purolite, you need a softener with 2.0 cu ft of C100 resin for 10gpm SFR

Quite a difference in opinion... who do you believe?

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Re: AGry--Thanks---Sizing Chart

andrelaplume wrote:

So who do YOU believe?

I believe the people who manufacture the resin. They are engineers, physicists, and chemists rarely found sitting at the kitchen table waiting for emails or keyboarding for dollars on other people's forums.

While you may never see that information it is necessary for calculating the correct size of your softener. If you know what you should be getting it's easier to tell when you're not getting it.

andrelaplume wrote:

SO. the 5600 is or is not for me...

***
Fleck 2510SE electronic metered demand regenerated 1.5 cubic foot (48K) softener using Purolite C-100e resin in a 10" x 54" Strutural Fibers tank with a 1.05" distributor tube and a 1" stainless steel or Noryl by-pass valve, including a Fleck float controlled 2310 safety brine system in a 15" x 17" x 36" brine tank with a grid

IMO the Fleck 5600SE is a reasonably priced control valve you should consider.

The Fleck 2510SE is an upscale model from the 5600SE. Parts and tech info are readily available for download. Since you're buying a softener for 15-20 years if you can afford the extra cost of the 2510SE, do it.

The 2510SE system you just mentioned has all the right stuff. Get the Noryl bypass and also have the plumber make a three ball valve bypass so if you need to service the Fleck bypass you'll still have water to the house. It will be worth the modest cost if you ever need it. I'd rather spend a little more at install than regret it a lot that I didn't later.

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Andre, reread this: especially the last part.
The sizing chart page tells you how to size a softener correctly except for the SFR rating of the softener, a homeowner can not come up with that figure on their own.

That "a homeowner" part, it includes my good buddy justalurker. His statement concerning the Purolite speck sheet SFR/cuft of resin... his assumption that I'm wrong is incorrect. He's missing a few critical pieces of info that can not be put on a web site because it is specific to each house, family and water quality. He is unaware of a few other things too.

You should know that he owns a softener using a Clack WS-1 that he bought from me in July 2004. He's upset with me because of a disagreement we had. He does his best to keep people from buying from me.

When you measured that 10 gpm water flow, it is not the SFR you need.

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Andre,

My apologies, you are simply looking for advice and you've gotten trapped in a typical Gary Slusser mud slinging thread.

Since Gary is posting advice it's only prudent to point out inaccuracies and unfounded opinion when they arise so there is at least a semblance of verifiable fact in these threads.

Gary Slusser wrote:

He's missing a few critical pieces of info that can not be put on a web site because it is specific to each house, family and water quality.

Just one man's opinion, BUT for the sake of this discussion let's (temporarily) accept that statement... that statement illustrates one important reason why the person in the best position to make an accurate assessment of the water treatment needs in a specific location is a water treatment pro making the site inspection at that location.

The SFR rates for specific volumes of resin are clearly posted on Gary's commercial web site (but the link he posted in his thread has been deleted) and they do not agree with the SFR specs provided by Purolite. I stated nothing more and nothing less, just the facts as provided to me by Purolite.

Any remote assessment relies on an (untrained) homeowner to provide accurate and correct details for any long distance seller to properly size the softener. Move it closer to the keyboard (or phone) so I can see it doesn't work as well when buying a softener and it doesn't work as well when a repair is needed as dealing with a local water treatment pro.

Relying on anyone to size a softener is like saying anyone can learn to solder and install a water softener or anyone can repair a Clack WS1 control valve. All are gross generalities and we were all taught not to generalize because generalizing is not accurate, but salespeople do it all the time.

So, if you want someone to size your softener who doesn't know what they are doing then why not go to Sears and buy a softener there?

If you do some searching around a the self-help forums you will find that my primary recommendation is to get a water test from a certified independent lab and find a local water treatment professional to assess and provide for your water treatment needs.

Gary Slusser wrote:

You should know that he owns a softener using a Clack WS-1 that he bought from me in July 2004

When Gary's true personality shone through after the sale I realized I had made a mistake and relegated the Clack softener to softening water at a friend's house. When he could afford to buy a proper softener the Slusser special went back to the shed. I did not want to be held hostage by Gary if warranty parts were needed. The way this remote selling drop shipping works is that only the softener seller can arrange for warranty replacement parts at no charge to the customer. If you piss Gary off or he gets hit by a bus then your warranty is worth the paper it is written on... well, in my case I never got any paperwork of any kind from Gary. If my house burned down I couldn't prove that I had that softener in the shed or what I had paid for it. Heck of a way to run a business, well more like a hobby really.

Only someone who has lived with a Clack WS1 day to day really knows it's shortcomings. It does do a masterful job of propping the door of the storage shed open.

All this discussion has led me to ponder some questions...

Is there only one water softener seller in the entire US that knows what he is doing?

Is there only one water softener seller in the entire US that knows how to correctly size a water softener?

Is there only one water softener control valve that is so superior to all the others that those other companies should just stop making control valves?

Is buying a water softener from someone you never met thousands of miles away who has no real idea of where and how it will be installed really the smart thing to do?

The answer to those questions is a resounding NO and don't let anyone tell you different because your own common sense tells you that the answer is NO.

None of this water softener stuff is magic... it's chemistry, physics, arithmetic, and a little mechanics. All the information is right there in the books for anyone who wants to take the time to learn it and put it to use.

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WATERSOFTENER: Fleck 5600 vs Master

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