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Fri 1 Aug, 2003 11:57 am
Imagine if the Jews had listened to Jesus and allowed him to help reform Judaism, as was his intention, instead of sacrificing him for the sake of the established order. How do you think the last 2003 years would have played out?
I'm not saying the Jews should have accepted Jesus as their messiah. He didn't claim to be a messiah. Their mistake was to dismiss the observations of a man who is arguably the most astute philosopher to ever grace humanity. They chose to bury what amounts to the key that unlocks the potential to their religion.
Naturally, this key was "discovered" and mutilated beyond recognition by the pagan hordes who recognized it for its power. These are the same pagan hordes that went on to dominate history, flying the standard of the murdered Jewish philosopher.
Of course not all of the pagans were brutish and dull. Some of them actually understood the observations of the Jewish philosopher, and they understood that his philosophy need not only apply to Jews. These enlightened pagans formed an undercurrent in Christianity that to this day battles the brutish and dull for the soul of the Jewish philosopher's message. We owe the "civilized" part of Western Civilization to these folks.
I was born into a Roman Catholic Christian family, but I don't call myself a Christian. Not because I reject the Jewish philosopher's teachings, but because I reject the putrid unsortable web that Christianity has choked his teachings with.
Time to get back to basics. Time to look at Jesus through a different prism. Remove Christianity and what do you have? A Jewish philosopher and visionary trying to reform an already advanced theism with a set of observations designed to tweak it to near-perfection.
From now on, in honor of Jesus and his almost magical message, I will call myself a Reformed Jew.
So instead of fixing your own religion you've just decided to adopt the existing name of another and take it over? You can call yourself a mountian goat but that doesn't make you one.
The Jews are the only people that can sort out the mess created by Christianity.
The Jews should take their son back and rightfully claim his unequaled achievement as their own.
The Jews should take Christians back too... we've been wandering aimlessly for 2000 years.
fishin, I have a logical case for calling myself a Reformed Jew, whereas I can't think of one for calling myself a mountain goat
Oy, another thing for us to do....like our lives aren't busy enough already
Incidentally, Reform Judaism is an existing sect, one that I was raised in. Here is some info:
http://rj.org/rj.shtml
Jews never denied that Christ was a great teacher. However, I do not think it is our job to save Christianity. However, your argument is supported by some:
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/
Christianity misses the context of Jesus. That context is Judaism and the history of monotheism. Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian.
Well, as a reform Jew, I suppose it is my duty to entertain this thought, and I wouldn't disagree that Jesus was a Jew. However, Jews do not prosletyze, so your people are out of luck for now. Have them move to Hollywood and take up Kabbalah, like Madonna and so many other non-Jewish media icons bored with Scientology.
Cav, Jews for Jesus may support my argument, but I don't neccessarily support theirs.
Jews for Jesus wrote:Our Mission Statement
We exist to make the messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide.
Summary Description
Jews for Jesus is one of the most extensive evangelistic outreaches to Jewish people in the world today. Using contemporary themes and issues, Jews for Jesus presents the message that Jesus is the Messiah to the Jewish population in urban areas.
Sounds like Christianity by another name...
You react so negatively, like I'm encroaching on your turf... like I'm trying to steal being Jewish from you.
Hmm....you can always convert to Judaism, but I can't promise Disney stock. We Jews want to keep the takeover from that Nazi-sympathizer Walt a bit hush hush. Many converts I know are far more well-versed in Judaism than I. Follow your heart, but personally, I think it is time to look at humanity through a different prism, not Jesus.
Heh heh, it is heated fun VL....please go on
This is one thread I had better stay out of.
I guess I should state that I'm not trying to convert anyone to Jesus... just exploring his relationship to Judaism and Christianity as a way to learn about history.
au, you're welcome to stay and cheer or add pointless remarks
Violet Lake
The remarks I add would not be pointless. However, I do not care to trample or make light of ones religious beliefs.
How should I put this...we surely must define 'history' as acts that are proveable. There is no real proof of a historical Jesus, or Buddha, or Yahweh. However, the teachings that were passed down in writing still hold resonance for all. So, if we are ever going to truly understand each other, it seems that we should indeed look to common themes in the religious texts of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and others. There are many. However, to call it 'history' is a bit freaky to me. The message is one, the interperetations are many, and it started way before Judaism. Accept the message, and accept that the message needs no name. Holy crap, my soapbox just grew 10 feet! :wink: Still, these are my beliefs, my way, and I think a worthy perspective to consider.
The accounts from that time period aren't as historically reliable as we would like, but it's fairly certain that Jesus did exist. We can't discard all accounts from the time just because it's impossible to prove them empirically. If that were the case, we would have to discard all accounts that occured before a given time period. Of course we have to judge the reliablility of each account based on various criteria. The case for the existence of Jesus is pretty strong despite the time elapsed.
As for Buddah and Yaweh, I don't know enough to comment.
au, not trying to trample or make light of anyone's religious beliefs, and this thread isn't an invitation to do so...
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