The proof that there were religious teachers that influenced what we now know as the modern world is indeed there, through the questionable scribblings of supposed devotees, whose original writings were edited and politicized over the course of many years. I just think that the lessons learned from said history are more important than the men/women who framed them, and I suspect they would agree.
The events and scribblings are separate from what was done with them. We all know what was done with them... I'm interested in getting as close as possible to the actual events and scribblings as possible... to be able to look at them without the perversion of the history we all hold so dear.
When problem solving (or learning in general) it pays to identify the cause of the effect, instead of dealing strictly with effects.
Violet Lake
True Jesus did exist. But are the myths that abound concerning who he was and what he did even the least bit true? All we know he was born and died as many others of the time did by being crucified There was nothing unique about it.
au, I'm not trying to make a case for his being divine, or having supernatural powers. Astute philosophers don't need such humiliating trappings
Violet Lake
What case are you trying to make. You are attributing to Jesus qualities that are only myths. Maybe they are true but than maybe they are just as I say myths made up to sell a new religion. He may just to have been an itinerant Jewish preacher.
au, do you believe in the ten commandments?
"People of Israel, I now present to you the 15 <smash> 10 commandments!"
-paraphrased from Mel Brooks
Speaking of Jewish icons, I am watching 'Bugsy' again as I type. Ben 'Bugsy' Siegel....now there was a true Maccabee.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters/bugsy/bugsymain.htm
I was watching Bill Moyers... good show tonight.
Anyway, I hope I'm not offending anyone by calling myself a reformed Jew. I'm not making light or trying to start a new religion, and I'm definitely not looking to trade one one arcane, ritual-laden religion for another
It's just my personal tribute to a man I admire and what I believe his intentions were.
VL, you are not offending me, at least. If you want to call yourself a reformed Jew, go for it. Hell, with anti-Israeli disputes being treated as anti-Jewish disputes these days, we need all the support we can get. I still stick to the opinion that the message is more important than the messenger, but if loving Jesus helps you understand the universal message, then all power to you.
You make me sound like an idolater. I hope I'm not coming off that way, and you're just joking
I'm glad I'm not offending you, and in the rare moments where I get to talk about religion, I'll make sure to explain that I'm not a reformed Jew in the same way that cavfancier is - my label only applies to me. Perhaps I'll think of a better label
VL
I would believe in the basic tenets of the 10 commandments even if they never existed.
Would have responded earlier however, having trouble making connection to a2k for the last several days.
As to being a reformed Jew there are many levels from the almost conservative to I wouldn't recognize it as being Jewish unless someone told me. As for me I was brought up in the orthodox tradition. [Not Ultra.] Unfortunately I don't practice as I should which at times gives me pangs of conscience since one cannot completely discard what was learned in childhood.
I grew up a reform Jew in an Orthodox neighbourhood, with Catholic families on both sides of us. It was an interesting environment. While I do not always agree with the Orthodox views on things, I find the people in the community wonderful debaters.
Even as a lad, I could never buy in to the theory that there was any such thing as one true religion. I voraciously read everything I could about other religions, and the mystics who were condemned for a different opinion of scripture. Islam/Sufis, Jews/Kabbalists, Christians/Rosicrucians-Alchemists, just a few examples. I wanted to post this article for education's sake. I don't entirely agree with either author (and I have read both books), but I find the history very interesting, and some of what is opined on both sides:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/danielou-paglia.html
I would also post this in the Christianity vs. Homosexuality thread, but the way it has gone, I hardly see the point
As for Jesus' message, remember that he was a Jew addressing a Jewish audience. A large part of his message was universal, as the Romans discovered later, but his intention was to reform his own religion, not start a new one.
So... what was his message?
1. The Jews should be aware that their religion had become a monolith with a corrupted bureaucracy that was betraying the principles it was founded on.
2. The Messiah concept is false. People are in charge of their own "salvation".
3. God is not as capricious, vindictive, or personally involved in human affairs as the Torah would have one believe. In essence, Jesus introduced a modern concept of God to the monotheistic world.
4. God doesn't play favorites. He loves all of his children equally, even gentiles, beggars, and whores.
5. We all have a direct line to God through what he called the holy spirit, which shouldn't be confused with shimmery ghosts.
6. One joyous liberal proclamation has the power to make the 10 prohibitions unnecessary. "Love each other." This simple yet powerful message was meant to set the human spirit free.
7. He was willing to die in order to teach his people what he believed were monumental truths... he died trying to give them the key to a better future.
A better future... leads me back to my original question. How do you think the last 2003 years would have played out?
The story is ironic, and tragic, and so very human. The interesting thing is that his ideas did end up liberalizing and reforming Judaism - from the outside though, and after a brutal and seemingly endless period of darkness.
A Jewish issue became the world's conundrum, only because the Jews relinquished control of the message.
I find it interesting that many Jews have the attitude that they don't have anything to do with Jesus. I can't say I blame them... a person praying to a "magical" Jew is a ridiculous notion. The fact is though, Judaism is responsible for Jesus and for the world his ideas helped shape. Of course that doesn't make Jews responsible for the stupidity, prejudices, and atrocious behavior of other people...
Read the article I posted VL, you might find it interesting. Your points are valid, but reading my post might help put things into historical perspective, which you said was part of your goal.
I should add, while Danielou claims to not be writing a history of religion, he is writing from the same headspace you are, a Christian who recognized that there was something else out there that was better, that could save humanity. It's just to see another's opinion, and he is quite the scholar.
VL
Believe what you will. IMO What you believe about Jesus is more than likely exaggeration, conjecture and myth.
Violet Lake wrote:As for Jesus' message, remember that he was a Jew addressing a Jewish audience. A large part of his message was universal, as the Romans discovered later, but his intention was to reform his own religion, not start a new one.
So... what was his message?
1. The Jews should be aware that their religion had become a monolith with a corrupted bureaucracy that was betraying the principles it was founded on.
2. The Messiah concept is false. People are in charge of their own "salvation".
3. God is not as capricious, vindictive, or personally involved in human affairs as the Torah would have one believe. In essence, Jesus introduced a modern concept of God to the monotheistic world.
4. God doesn't play favorites. He loves all of his children equally, even gentiles, beggars, and whores.
5. We all have a direct line to God through what he called the holy spirit, which shouldn't be confused with shimmery ghosts.
6. One joyous liberal proclamation has the power to make the 10 prohibitions unnecessary. "Love each other." This simple yet powerful message was meant to set the human spirit free.
7. He was willing to die in order to teach his people what he believed were monumental truths... he died trying to give them the key to a better future.
A better future... leads me back to my original question. How do you think the last 2003 years would have played out?
The story is ironic, and tragic, and so very human. The interesting thing is that his ideas did end up liberalizing and reforming Judaism - from the outside though, and after a brutal and seemingly endless period of darkness.
A Jewish issue became the world's conundrum, only because the Jews relinquished control of the message.
I find it interesting that many Jews have the attitude that they don't have anything to do with Jesus. I can't say I blame them... a person praying to a "magical" Jew is a ridiculous notion. The fact is though, Judaism is responsible for Jesus and for the world his ideas helped shape. Of course that doesn't make Jews responsible for the stupidity, prejudices, and atrocious behavior of other people...
Still sounds like prosletyzing to me...are you sure you aren't in step with 'Jews for Jesus?' It sounds to me like you are.
As for the question of how things would be different had Jesus reformed Judaism? I think they would still be pretty much the same. History has proven to be circular, so I do not feel that the details would change the outcome. Also, Judaism is responsible for Jesus? Umm, that responsibility must go to Joseph and Mary, and 'Virgin Birth' my ass. With all that hay in the manger, Joe probably needed a roll in it once in a while.
Actually, down the page on the article, there are some interesting facts on the origins of Jesus and Judeo-Christian religion in general. Thanks!
