Y DO SUICIDES MURDER THEIR FAMILIES ?

Quote:

omsigdavid - Absolutely nothing that you're saying makes any kind of sense to me,
and I can usually find some sense or nonsense in most posts.[/color]

I agree with Mame; if gangbangers had to rely on their fists there'd be less murders.

It seems that you are implying that murderers will obey the law,
and that murderers will not violate gun control laws.
I disagree.
As I answered you before:
murderers DID NOT wait until guns were invented
to begin killing folks.
In addition, NO prohibition in America has ever succeeded;
not the one against alcohol, nor the one against marijuana, nor illegal guns.
The gangbangers can and will ( if thay need to ) buy guns
from underground gunsmiths, just as thay buy marijuana underground; no surprize.

Quote:

I don't think there'd be drive-by killings because it's difficult to do a drive-by stabbing, choking, or clubbing.
Although, it's probably possible to do a drive-by rock throwing,
but I don't think that would lead to 178 deaths in less than 7 months.

Happycat,
if u can 't convince them to obey the laws against murder,
then HOW will u convince them to obey gun control laws ?
Will u explain THAT to me ?

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This thread has gotten way off topic.

Yes

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We've gone from wondering why someone would commit a murder and suicide to arguing gun laws.

We DID.

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We've listed a whole bunch of possible reasons as to why someone committing suicide would kill others first.

I STILL think that thay shud commit suicide FIRST,
tho that notion does not seem too popular on this board.

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Yet they're just guesses because (hopefully) none of us has ever experienced that feeling of wanting to die,
or worse wanting others to die with us.

Yeah.

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I suggested that family and friends should watch
for clues and try to find help in some way.

HOW are u gonna get them to DO that ?
A spy recruitment campaign ?

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There are certainly enough hotlines and clinics and, if all else fails,
police to intervene or offer some sort of assistance in heading off a tragedy.

I doubt that the police will do anything until a crime has been committed.

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All you want to do, omsigdavid, is to arm children with guns.

Yes.
As I said, I armed myself with a .38 revolver at age 8.
I was glad of it; I felt more secure.

I believe that kids, or anyone shud be able to defend their lives and property,
when confronted with predatory violence.
You disagree.
I am sure that the murderers agree with you, not with me.

David

Quote:

Omsigdavid - I think you just dwell on violence too much.

Well, the thread was brought on by the suicide of Pro. Wrestler Chris Benoit,
after he murdered his wife, and 7 year old boy, Dan,
so that involves analysis of violence, ergo the sequellae.

Quote:

Do you have any other hobbies besides guns and reading about horrific crimes against children?

Yes.
I am interested in the reconciliation of Relativity Theory with Quantum Mechanics
in Membrane Theory in 11 dimensions, Astrophysics, Vertebrate Paleontology,
Metaphysics, the continuation of conscious life after death of the human body,
Constitutional Jurisprudence, the works of William Shakespeare,
Psychology, Parapsychology, Old Gold Coin Collecting, Gun Collecting
and promotion of fonetic spelling.
I bought a giant High Definition TV whose pictures' clarity and brilliance blow my mind,
from which I have taken great delight in the Discovery Channel,
the History Channel, the National Geographic Channel, the Military Channel,
and the Science Channel inter alia.

I founded a fine dining special interest group for NY Mensa,
some of whose members travel to many conventions around America,
whose best restaurants we enjoy.

I am into libertarianism, individualism, hedonism and l'aissez faire
free market economics of the Ludwig von Mises school of thought.
I have also dropped dimes, quarters and half dollars from hot air balloons,
near unsuspecting children playing in the grass of parks,
and abandoned cash near groups of them in public places like musea,
where thay r likely to find the cash for their delight.

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Focusing on only violent crimes can color your perspective of the world.

U r probably right.

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A very good friend of mine is a city homicide detective.
He sees terrible things every day, yet he manages to keep a mental balance.
He understands that bad things happen to bad people, but unfortunately
bad things happen to good people too. He's been doing this for 14 years,
and in spite of his job he's still more optimistic than you.

I consider myself to be an optimist.
Thanx for your interest.
David

Quote:

David - what I'm saying is that to give kids guns in case
their parents go bonkers and try to kill them is a bad plan.

Very few parents do what Andrea Yates or Chris Benoit did;
fewer than one out of 1000 parents have murdered their own children.
That is a twisted vu of what I suggest.
I take the old philosophy of America about that,
meaning that any person who is physically able to lift a gun
shud be prepared to defend his life from unexpected predatory violence FROM ANYONE,
in the same spirit that one keeps a fire extinguisher in the house,
and with the same reasoning that one pays the premia of health insurance:
JUST IN CASE.
My first guns were kept for defense against ANY predator,
not directed against my parents, whose nature was certainly NOT such
as to necessitate defense from them. The later guns of my collection
have little to do with security. I bought them as artifacts of history,
or for their esthetic beauty; ( the police, and others, have accosted me
at gunnery ranges, to commend me on the beauty of my ordnance ).

Quote:

I'm not trying to take guns away from law abiding citizens,
and I acknowledge that trying to get guns away from criminals
and criminals-to-be is a lost cause.
Stop saying that you had a gun when you were 8! How sad.

Sad ?
We did not consider it to be SAD !
The other kids in the neighborhood were as well or better armed
than I was. We loved our ordnance.
We shot targets out on the dessert and had gunnery teams in school.
Around World War I, Congress created the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice,
headed by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship,
from whom we cud buy, and DID buy very inexpensive ordnance;
e.g., I got a mint condition .30 caliber M-1 Carbine for $20
and a .45 caliber 1911 Automatic Colt Pistol for $12.
We loved it and NO ONE WAS SAD.

Quote:

You must have been a very frightened child to want or need to carry a gun

No.
I was not " very frightened ".
We lived in a peaceful and crime-free neighborhood.
In the 5 years that I lived there, the police NEVER showed up with lights and sirens.
Regardless, I felt a little ill-at-ease,
wondering how I cud defend my house, if ever I had to.
I never had to, but I enjoyed a greater state of tranquility
after I acquired my first gun and practiced with it.

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at an age when you should have been focusing on Little League.

I had no use for that; the purest essence of waste. I did not participate.
When groups of people compete as to which group can run around
in circles better than the other group, I consider that to be an
exercise in futility that is unworthy of interest and inconsequential.
Whoever wins wins nothing and whoever loses loses nothing.
No matter what happens, both sides break even, the same as when thay started.

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I guess you never got into a fist fight with another kid and went home with a shiner,
since when you whipped out your .38 and everyone ran away.

An old saying:
" an ARMED society, is a POLITE society. "
Maybe that 's how the Japs got that way ( Samurai with swords ).

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Or did you even have any friends?

Yes; good people.
David

Quote: happycat -
at an age when you should have been focusing on Little League.

Quote: omsigDavid -
I had no use for that; the purest essence of waste. I did not participate.
When groups of people compete as to which group can run around
in circles better than the other group, I consider that to be an
exercise in futility that is unworthy of interest and inconsequential.
Whoever wins wins nothing and whoever loses loses nothing.
No matter what happens, both sides break even, the same as when thay started.

David, you either belong in the old west, or the distant post-apocalypse United States.
But at the present time we're trying to keep people from shooting each other.
I'm done here.

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Very, very few kids,
even those that have been abused for years and years and years
and have ready access to guns, kill their parents.

I agree that few of them do.
I saw on TV one case wherein it happened
to a nasty, chronically abusive father,
whose 2 sons ambushed him,
and took him out with a .22 caliber rifle.
It appears that he deserved it.

I agree that very few kids defensively kill their parents.

Many decades ago, my neighbor ( in NY )
who was a 12 year old Italian kid ( when I was maybe a year older )
complained to me that his father hit him and spanked him.
I said that his dignity required that he fight back.
He did not accept my philosophy in the matter,
and as he continued to discuss the situation with me,
and I continued to take his side, and to support his rights of self defense,
he turned around 180 degrees, and said that his father
" has a right to hit me. " I was shocked.

Quote:

Very few of them even tell on their parents.

Maybe.
I don 't know what the proportions are.

I remember, at the age of 13, my father got into a dispute with me.
I returned to the house with some police in uniform.
He was rather taken aback.

a minor matter that we easily resolved

" Those were the DAYS, my friend.
We thought they 'd NEVER end... "

Quote:

Little kids, like the two you keep using in your argument,

U think I shud use more examples ?

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don't really understand that death is final
so they don't even think about shooting their parents to escape danger.

This is FALSE.

Don 't u REMEMBER being that age ?
Don 't u remember the kids by whom u were surrounded ?

I clearly remember back to the celebration of my 3rd Birthday,
and some time leading up to it, and I have no difficulty
in remembering the kids my age by whom I was surrounded
during my entire childhood.
I remember conversing with them and understanding their minds
from that conversation.
I certainly and very clearly understood that death was final
( more recently, in the 1980s I changed my mind about that:
see www.IANDS.ORG ).
I remember, at age 6, the dead body of my grandmother
being removed by the police and ambulance personnel.
It was an emotional shock, within which I had no trouble in understanding death.
I knew it and understood it a lot more clearly than I wanted to.
It was very STARK.
My contemporaries were no stupider than I was.

Quote:

It doesn't appear that they suffered years of abuse.
The probably had no idea that their parent was intent on killing them.

When Dan Benoit saw his mother killed by
the professional wrestler who was strangling him to death,
I think that he probably suspected what his dad had in mind.
Unfortunately, it does not appear that 7-year-old Dan
had easy access to a gun, at that time; he lost his life as the result of HELPLESSNESS.
Dan lost his life at age 7, because of a difference in POWER to his disadvantage.
I wish that someone had handed 7-year-old Dan a loaded gun, whose hammer was cocked, when he NEEDED IT.
That gun wud have been the fountain of LIFE for Dan.

I disagree
that children are as stupid as u suggest,
from remembering my own experience at those ages,
and from observing my contemporaries at the same ages.
David

boomerang wrote:

Quote:

Very, very few kids,
even those that have been abused for years and years and years
and have ready access to guns, kill their parents.

I agree that few of them do.
I saw on TV one case wherein it happened
to a nasty, chronically abusive father,
whose 2 sons ambushed him,
and took him out with a .22 caliber rifle.
It appears that he deserved it.

I agree that very few kids defensively kill their parents.

Many decades ago, my neighbor ( in NY )
who was a 12 year old Italian kid ( when I was maybe a year older )
complained to me that his father hit him and spanked him.
I said that his dignity required that he fight back.
He did not accept my philosophy in the matter,
and as he continued to discuss the situation with me,
and I continued to take his side, and to support his rights of self defense,
he turned around 180 degrees, and said that his father
" has a right to hit me. " I was shocked.

Quote:

Very few of them even tell on their parents.

Maybe.
I don 't know what the proportions are.

I remember, at the age of 13, my father got into a dispute with me.
I returned to the house with some police in uniform.
He was rather taken aback.

a minor matter that we easily resolved

" Those were the DAYS, my friend.
We thought they 'd NEVER end... "

Quote:

Little kids, like the two you keep using in your argument,

U think I shud use more examples ?

Quote:

don't really understand that death is final
so they don't even think about shooting their parents to escape danger.

This is FALSE.

Don 't u REMEMBER being that age ?
Don 't u remember the kids by whom u were surrounded ?

I clearly remember back to the celebration of my 3rd Birthday,
and some time leading up to it, and I have no difficulty
in remembering the kids my age by whom I was surrounded
during my entire childhood.
I remember conversing with them and understanding their minds
from that conversation.
I certainly and very clearly understood that death was final
( more recently, in the 1980s I changed my mind about that:
see www.IANDS.ORG ).
I remember, at age 6, the dead body of my grandmother
being removed by the police and ambulance personnel.
It was an emotional shock, within which I had no trouble in understanding death.
I knew it and understood it a lot more clearly than I wanted to.
It was very STARK.
My contemporaries were no stupider than I was.

Quote:

It doesn't appear that they suffered years of abuse.
The probably had no idea that their parent was intent on killing them.

When Dan Benoit saw his mother killed by
the professional wrestler who was strangling him to death,
I think that he probably suspected what his dad had in mind.
Unfortunately, it does not appear that 7-year-old Dan
had easy access to a gun, at that time; he lost his life as the result of HELPLESSNESS.
Dan lost his life at age 7, because of a difference in POWER to his disadvantage.
I wish that someone had handed 7-year-old Dan a loaded gun, whose hammer was cocked, when he NEEDED IT.
That gun wud have been the fountain of LIFE for Dan.

I disagree
that children are as stupid as u suggest,
from remembering my own experience at those ages,
and from observing my contemporaries at the same ages.
David

omg. if this entire post is not some made-up fantasy of a joke on all of us, then I'm really shocked. You've gone beyond the realms of debate here Dave.

Quote:

David - I did in fact read all your responses.

THANK U.
I did invest some time in analyzing your questions and comments
and in preparing my responses to u.

Quote:

However, when you responded that you had no use for Little League
and the like, I just gave up.

Will u agree that everyone has a right to his own tastes and preferences ?

Quote:

Instead of allowing kids to be kids, doing things that they should be doing
(ie. participating in sports and activities that promote good behavior and teamwork)

Maybe u MISUNDERSTOOD me.
I never prevented them from running around in circles
( except when I refused their invitations to play and thay did not have enuf guys )
We DID participate in sports during our gunnery competitions,
at school, or out on the desert.

There survives a letter from Thomas Jefferson
( the author of the Declaration of Independence,
our 3rd President, and the Founder of the Universtiy of Virginia )
to his 12 year old nephew, advising him to always take his gun with him
when he goes on his walks, and to practice with it, for proficiency.
Jefferson preferred gunnery to ball games, for character enhancement.
I accept Jefferson 's philosophy on this point.

Quote:

you focus on what they should be doing to arm themselves against bad guys (ie. their parents.)

NO, NO, NO.
U don 't understand me correctly.

I started this thread based on the incident of Pro. Wrestler Chris Benoit
strangling his wife and 7-year-old boy to death
and subsequently hanging himself.

THAT is how the subject came up
and that is the subject-matter of this thread.

MY position, my opinion, is that victims shud be able to DEFEND themselves from the predatory violence
of any living being, NOT FROM THEIR PARENTS IN PARTICULAR.

I am NOT anti-parent.
David

omg. if this entire post is not some made-up fantasy of a joke on all of us, then I'm really shocked. You've gone beyond the realms of debate here Dave

OmSigDAVID wrote:

boomerang wrote:

Quote:

Very, very few kids,
even those that have been abused for years and years and years
and have ready access to guns, kill their parents.

I agree that few of them do.
I saw on TV one case wherein it happened
to a nasty, chronically abusive father,
whose 2 sons ambushed him,
and took him out with a .22 caliber rifle.
It appears that he deserved it.

I agree that very few kids defensively kill their parents.

Many decades ago, my neighbor ( in NY )
who was a 12 year old Italian kid ( when I was maybe a year older )
complained to me that his father hit him and spanked him.
I said that his dignity required that he fight back.
He did not accept my philosophy in the matter,
and as he continued to discuss the situation with me,
and I continued to take his side, and to support his rights of self defense,
he turned around 180 degrees, and said that his father
" has a right to hit me. " I was shocked.

Quote:

Very few of them even tell on their parents.

Maybe.
I don 't know what the proportions are.

I remember, at the age of 13, my father got into a dispute with me.
I returned to the house with some police in uniform.
He was rather taken aback.

a minor matter that we easily resolved

" Those were the DAYS, my friend.
We thought they 'd NEVER end... "

Quote:

Little kids, like the two you keep using in your argument,

U think I shud use more examples ?

Quote:

don't really understand that death is final
so they don't even think about shooting their parents to escape danger.

This is FALSE.

Don 't u REMEMBER being that age ?
Don 't u remember the kids by whom u were surrounded ?

I clearly remember back to the celebration of my 3rd Birthday,
and some time leading up to it, and I have no difficulty
in remembering the kids my age by whom I was surrounded
during my entire childhood.
I remember conversing with them and understanding their minds
from that conversation.
I certainly and very clearly understood that death was final
( more recently, in the 1980s I changed my mind about that:
see www.IANDS.ORG ).
I remember, at age 6, the dead body of my grandmother
being removed by the police and ambulance personnel.
It was an emotional shock, within which I had no trouble in understanding death.
I knew it and understood it a lot more clearly than I wanted to.
It was very STARK.
My contemporaries were no stupider than I was.

Quote:

It doesn't appear that they suffered years of abuse.
The probably had no idea that their parent was intent on killing them.

When Dan Benoit saw his mother killed by
the professional wrestler who was strangling him to death,
I think that he probably suspected what his dad had in mind.
Unfortunately, it does not appear that 7-year-old Dan
had easy access to a gun, at that time; he lost his life as the result of HELPLESSNESS.
Dan lost his life at age 7, because of a difference in POWER to his disadvantage.
I wish that someone had handed 7-year-old Dan a loaded gun, whose hammer was cocked, when he NEEDED IT.
That gun wud have been the fountain of LIFE for Dan.

I disagree
that children are as stupid as u suggest,
from remembering my own experience at those ages,
and from observing my contemporaries at the same ages.
David

omg. if this entire post is not some made-up fantasy
of a joke on all of us, then I'm really shocked.

You've gone beyond the realms of debate here Dave.

Happycat:

1. As to the question of made-up fantasy:
I quoted and set forth the Associated Press article upon which this thread is based
at the beginning of this thread; ( take a look ).

2. HOW did I go beyond the realm of debate ? Where did I go rong ?






3. Happycat,
I see that u write in the color blue.
I have also used colored fonts of different sizes
in an effort to express myself more clearly.

Have u received complaints from the residents of this forum
concerning your use of color ?

I did:
Some of the members pleaded, supplicated, entreated, begged
and implored my mercy, that I stop doing it.

Therefore, I am restraining myself to some limited degree.
I think your use of blue writing is pretty, colorful and ez to read.
David



.

Quote:

omg. if this entire post is not some made-up fantasy of a joke on all of us, then I'm really shocked.
You've gone beyond the realms of debate here Dave

I agree. It's like some kind of very sick pornography.

You'd be hard pressed to come up with any left wing, politically correct postings of mine to respond to.

As to guns, I am in fact a gun owner and support responsible gun ownership and responsible gun laws.

But your absurd kids with guns fantasies are grotesque.

If your idea of freedom is to be so afraid that you have to carry a gun everywhere you're welcome to it.

Quote= omsigDavid:

Quote:

Its a matter of having the presence of mind
to soundly and logically plan for possible emergenies BEFORE thay occur.

Quote:

ah, there's the rub Davey. A child of 7 cannot do that.
If you had children, or knew anything about children (other than referencing your own bizarre childhood) then you would understand that children cannot, and do not, think abstractly.

I have to disagree with u, Happycat.

I can remember back to ( and before ) age 3
and I clearly recall my uncle telling me repeatedly not to argue
with my mother. In a sarcastic and negative way,
he repeated that I 'd be priceless as a lawyer.
That practice of frequent argument was in abstract thought,
day after day. The other kids by whom I was surrounded
were not very different than I was, and thay were NOT discernibly less intelligent.
We argued about what was right and rong, a lot.
Argument in the abstract represented NO PROBLEMS for us.

Indeed, as I said previously, at age 8, I felt a little ill-at-ease
in not knowing how I 'd defend my house, if I had to.
Hence, I felt very relieved, when I won a revolver in a poker game
with other kids in the neighborhood. This all entailed abstract thought.



David

P.S.
Following up on what u deemed " creepy " thoughts of mine,
Happycat, do u consider it " creepy " that from the age of 3 until 8
( before I had possession of any functional guns )
when I saw police in the street, my eyes fell on their guns and locked on.

I used to daydream of misappropriating not just the revolver,
but the whole rig that I had seen on police and on bank guards.
In other words, between ages 3 to 8,
I used to lie in bed and think about grabbing
a police officer's gunbelt with its gun and bandolier holding ammunition.

At that age I was not obsessed with guns;
( maybe semi-obsessed ).