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Neocon Idiots on the March toward Iran

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 11:58 am
Brand X wrote:
username wrote:
Now here's a frightening thought: W is going to have a colonoscopy, and they've got to anesthetise him, so he's temporarily handing over the powers of the presidency to, yes, the loose cannon himself, Dick Cheney. I wish this were a joke. It's msn breaking news. Gods help us all.


They'll have to do a colonoscopy on Cheney to find Bush first.


Brand just out-cuted me.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2007 12:20 pm
High Seas wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
blatham wrote:
finn claims
Quote:
There was no shortage of Roman intellectuals declaring that the barbarians at the gates were pure of nature and that Rome deserved to fall to their cleansing way.


Really? Which Roman intellectuals are you referring to here? Apparently there was no shortage of them so some names ought to be on the tip of your tongue. Along with quotes from them, of course.


Good question.

I learned of this in a history class taught by a prof for whom I had great respect. Frankly the point made more of an impression on my memory thirty years ago than did any individual names or quotes. Perhaps he was lying to me. I assume that you would contend that he was, or are you just being cute?

I forgot we need footnotes on A2K. I guess I need to do some research.


Finn is correct, Bernie (big hug of welcome from me too, btw).

Quote:


Three times, in the 5th century, Italy is exposed to the barbarians. Alaric and the Visigoths reach Rome in 410; Attila and the Huns turn back from northern Italy in 452; Gaiseric and the Vandals reach Rome again, this time from Africa, in 455. But the decisive blow comes in 476.

.............................................

German mercenaries by now form an important part of any Roman army, and Roman armies play a major role in the making and breaking of emperors.The tribesmen elect one of their number, Odoacer, as their king. He leads them to a rapid victory, but immediately makes it clear that his intention is not to destroy the western empire. He wants to be part of it. He sends ambassadors to the emperor Zeno in Constantinople, acknowledging the emperor's rule but asking to be allowed to govern Italy as king of his own people. Zeno reluctantly agrees, subject to certain points of protocol.

The senate in Rome accepts the fait accompli with better grace, for Odoacer proves an effective ruler within the traditional Roman system. He even finds land for his German tribesmen without causing undue upheaval.


http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac52

This sequence of events isn't in doubt, and though historians (Roman or otherwise) may apply different interpretations to the causes of the fall of the Roman empire they all seem agreed on the date, 476.

Btw, the great poet (and classicist) Cavafy makes Finn's exact point in his poem "Waiting for the Barbarians" - perhaps someone can find a link.


hi dollface, nice to "see" you again. Damn near moved in here now. I miss NY...the noise, the steam, the asbestos particles. This place is quite lovely but has an overabundance of white people in clothes made from hemp and granola. Please fed ex some mexicans, jews, italians and african americans. Keep the Irish.

I don't think the details above or Cavafy's poem do the work that Finn might hope. He's a charter member of Students For Academic Freedom, Texas Chapter and the Official Bugler at the annual Lubbock Pointyhead Posse.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2007 07:23 pm
blatham wrote:
Thanks.

No, wasn't trying to be cute, though I have cuteness available at a moment's notice. It's just that 1) my limited familiarity with Latin writing at that period has never bumped into such commentary and 2) my familiarity with your writing demonstrates a dependably recurrent Finnish theme ("Intellectuals! Sometimes they poop, sometimes they speak and if they weren't constitutionally upside down then they might themselves know which one it is they are doing.")


A couple of items found through a quick and rough Google search:

From Barbarians to New Men: Greek, Roman, and Modern Perceptions of Peoples of the Central Apennines By Emma Dench

This study explores the conflicting Greek and Roman perceptions of the mountain peoples of ancient Italy: as either dangerous, decadent, snake-charming barbarians; or as austere, morally upright country-people and soldiers. It considers how Roman identity developed to encompass them.


"His treatment of the Germanic peoples outside the empire is of mixed value to historians. Tacitus uses what he reports of the German character as a kind of 'noble savage' as a comparison to contemporary Romans and their (in his eyes) 'degeneracy'. Despite this drawback, he does supply us with many names for tribes with which Rome had come into contact. Tacitus' information was not, in general, based on first-hand knowledge, and more recent research has shown that many of his assumptions were incorrect. In fact, contemporary historians debate whether all these tribes were really Germanic in the sense that they spoke a Germanic language - some of them, like the Batavii, may have been Celts.

Tacitus survived a reign of terror and from a senator he advanced to consulship in AD 97 . Fifteen years later he held the highest civilian governorship, that of Western Anatolia. Tacitus was a friend of Pliny the Younger and was greatly admired by him. His wife was the daughter of Julius Agricola, who governed in Britain and was the subject of one of his works.


Enough links found to confirm to me that by old history prof was correct. If you disagree, fine.

For relevance see Barbarians

By the way, I do not have contempt for all intellectuals, only the ones who glory in the label, the ones who consider themselve so apart from the masses they would judge, the ones who loath their own intellectual foundation. In short, the ones who are horses' asses.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 09:53 am
I can't make a credible charge that your claim is inaccurate because I simply don't know enough, but you haven't provided anything approaching evidence for that claim. I'll file it under "something somebody said".

I am disinclined to criticize a Monty Python alumni short of some account where's he has fried up several children and then served it up without a complimentary side-dish. Or contrasting-color garnishes. Presentation, as this administration understands, is everything.
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High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2007 01:31 pm
Fan of Tacitus - and of Thucydides - here, wish to point out that their great classics, models of historical writing, were not "first-hand" accounts, being composed long after the events they describe.

"Anabasis" on the other hand, a first-hand account by Herodotus, contains some exaggerations - btw am rereading it right now to see how to extricate US land forces from what's currently Iraq!
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2007 05:13 pm
blatham wrote:
I can't make a credible charge that your claim is inaccurate because I simply don't know enough, but you haven't provided anything approaching evidence for that claim. I'll file it under "something somebody said".

I am disinclined to criticize a Monty Python alumni short of some account where's he has fried up several children and then served it up without a complimentary side-dish. Or contrasting-color garnishes. Presentation, as this administration understands, is everything.


Don't understand, at all, your second paragraph. Seems to be blatham being too cute by a half.

As for your first paragraph -- so be it, but I am surprised that you are not familiar with, at least, Tacitus. Which is not to say that I was, but then I don't lay claim to the scholarly mien.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2007 05:59 pm
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
blatham wrote:
I can't make a credible charge that your claim is inaccurate because I simply don't know enough, but you haven't provided anything approaching evidence for that claim. I'll file it under "something somebody said".

I am disinclined to criticize a Monty Python alumni short of some account where's he has fried up several children and then served it up without a complimentary side-dish. Or contrasting-color garnishes. Presentation, as this administration understands, is everything.


Don't understand, at all, your second paragraph. Seems to be blatham being too cute by a half.

As for your first paragraph -- so be it, but I am surprised that you are not familiar with, at least, Tacitus. Which is not to say that I was, but then I don't lay claim to the scholarly mien.


Have read Tacitus and Herodotus but long ago. As I said, I hadn't bumped into such commentary (or don't recall doing so) as your prof or you suggested withinin those sources or elsewhere. But my knowledge in this area is shallow.

Your post linked to a critique of a English TV documentary apparently titled "Barbarians". That documentary was done by one of the Monty Python boys (he's done a number of them...I've seen one...very entertaining history).
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2007 08:32 pm
blatham wrote:
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
blatham wrote:
I can't make a credible charge that your claim is inaccurate because I simply don't know enough, but you haven't provided anything approaching evidence for that claim. I'll file it under "something somebody said".

I am disinclined to criticize a Monty Python alumni short of some account where's he has fried up several children and then served it up without a complimentary side-dish. Or contrasting-color garnishes. Presentation, as this administration understands, is everything.


Don't understand, at all, your second paragraph. Seems to be blatham being too cute by a half.

As for your first paragraph -- so be it, but I am surprised that you are not familiar with, at least, Tacitus. Which is not to say that I was, but then I don't lay claim to the scholarly mien.


Have read Tacitus and Herodotus but long ago. As I said, I hadn't bumped into such commentary (or don't recall doing so) as your prof or you suggested withinin those sources or elsewhere. But my knowledge in this area is shallow.

Your post linked to a critique of a English TV documentary apparently titled "Barbarians". That documentary was done by one of the Monty Python boys (he's done a number of them...I've seen one...very entertaining history).


OK - Now I get it, and a vapid Python he, currently, is.

You must have read Tacitus quite sometime ago (when your mind was a fresh field) or you failed to acknowledge the resonnance.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Jul, 2007 10:27 am
I once attempted acknowledging resonnance but failed to pull it off.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 01:01 am
blatham wrote:
I once attempted acknowledging resonnance but failed to pull it off.


Hard to imagine that you ever had a problem with pulling it off.
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