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Questions For Which Evolutionists Have No Answers

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 11:14 am
rosborne979 wrote:
... and so far, I agree with them.


Me too.

Quote:
DARK MATTER HIDES, PHYSICISTS SEEK

for Stanford News Service
Stanford CA (SPX) Dec 01, 2006
Scientists don't know what dark matter is, but they know it's all over the universe. Everything humans observe in the heavens-galaxies, stars, planets and the rest-makes up only 4 percent of the universe, scientists say. The remaining 96 percent is composed of dark matter and its even more mysterious sibling, dark energy.
Scientists recently found direct evidence that dark matter exists by studying a distant galaxy cluster and observing different types of motion in luminous versus dark matter. Still, no one knows what dark matter is made of. Now, a pioneering international project co-led by Stanford physicist Blas Cabrera may finally crack the case and pin down the elusive particles that form dark matter.

"It's harder and harder to get away from the fact that there is a substance out there that's making up most of the universe that we can't see," says Cabrera. "The stars and galaxies themselves are like Christmas tree lights on this huge ship that's dark and neither absorbs nor emits light." ...

... "Dark matter permeates everything," Cabrera says. "It just never collapsed the way atoms did."

Since dark matter never formed stars and other familiar heavenly objects, for a long time scientists never knew it was there. The earliest indication of its existence came in the 1930s when Fritz Zwicky, a Swiss-American astronomer, observed clusters of galaxies. He added up the masses of galaxies and noticed that there was not enough mass to account for the gravity that must exist to hold the clusters together. Something else must provide the missing mass, he deduced.

Later in the 1970s, Vera Rubin, an American astronomer, measured the speeds of stars in the Milky Way and other nearby galaxies. As she looked farther out toward the edges of these galaxies, she found that the stars do not rotate more slowly as scientists expected. "That didn't make any sense," Cabrera says. "The only way you could understand it is if there was a lot more mass there than what you saw in the starlight."

Over the years, more and more evidence for dark matter has piled up. Although scientists don't yet know what it is, they have a better idea of where it is and how much of it there should be. "There's very little wiggle room left for having different quantities," Cabrera says ...


Shedding A Bit Light on The Darkness
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 12:28 pm
Thank you's to Timber, Thomas and Rosbourne for you educational posts. I often wonder why you bother posting on threads started by people who have reached a conclusion and refuse to consider anything other than that with which they agree. To me, it is a waste of your time, as nothing ever changes.

A post by Thomas made me realize how valuable you can be on a forum such as this. He said, without pasting his actual quote, that if one person reads these factual, well-researched posts and starts to question and read about the subject, he thinks his time was well spent. I can't agree more and it makes me doubly appreciative of your efforts on a2k. If only one reader can then make a friend or relative start questioning and reading more on the subject, developing a respect for the use of scientific technique and ongoing research, your posts will evolve, not even taking millions, billions of years (although, considering some of my relatives, it could be hundreds of thousands of years).

Lights in the wilderness, that's what you guys are, shining through all the negative energy and dark matter.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 12:48 pm
gungasnake wrote:
The idea of a big bang is bad physics and bad theology to boot. Having all the mass of the universe collapsed to a point would be the mother of all black holes. Nothing would ever "bang" its way out of that.

Moreover, having an omnipotent and omniscient God suddenly decide that creating a universe 17 billion years ago when the idea had never occurred to him aforehand is basically nonsensical. How could he be omniscient and not have figured that out 17 trillion or 17 quadrillion years ago??

Until somebody can show me a reason for believing otherwise, I am sticking with the idea that the universe is basically eternal.

I can. Get a PhD in Physics, and I absolutely guarantee that you will find very elaborate, very detailed, very tight reasoning supporting that idea. I wouldn't attempt to critique a novel written in Pakistani without learning the language first. I truly don't mean to be mean, but who cares whether you believe it or not? You don't know anything about the subject.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 01:32 pm
No need for a PhD; an actual functional understanding of 10th Grade General Science is all that's necessary to bring one into step with post-Reformation thought. Fear and ignorance, most particularly when matters of choice and comfort level, tend to be mutually self-reinforcing.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 05:10 pm
gungasnake wrote:
The idea of a big bang is bad physics and bad theology to boot. Having all the mass of the universe collapsed to a point would be the mother of all black holes. Nothing would ever "bang" its way out of that.

Not necessarily. If somewhere in space, there was a small place where all the mass of the universe was concentrated, you'd be right. That would be the mother of all black holes, and little would ever escape it. (For an explanation of why a little and not nothing, Google "Hawking Radiation".)

But the Big Bang theory does not postulate a dense concentration of mass somewhere in space. It postulates that space itself started out very small and then expanded rapidly. That's something different than a black hole. For details, Google "Big Bang Black Hole".

But there is a deeper point that these answers somewhat distract from. That point is, one day, you may well ask a question that I cannot answer with a Google search, that no biologist has yet thought of, and nobody can give you a satisfactory answer to. If and when this happens, you will have proven nothing about the merits of creationism compared to materialist explanations of the world. Science doesn't have the answer to everything, and no good scientist claims that it does. The creationist response to science not explaining everything is to throw up ones hands and exclaim: "therefore, the answer must be god. And by all means let's not research the mystery away, lest we diminish the range of questions that god is the answer to." Good scientists will have a very different reaction. They will say, "let's do more research so we can answer more interesting questions!" The point of science isn't that it knows everything. It's to be curious about everything.

I find the creationists' logic shoddy, and their lack of curiosity bemusing. But to each his own.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 05:37 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:

Quote:

Until somebody can show me a reason for believing otherwise, I am sticking with the idea that the universe is basically eternal.

I can. Get a PhD in Physics, and I absolutely guarantee that you will find very elaborate, very detailed, very tight reasoning supporting that idea. I wouldn't attempt to critique a novel written in Pakistani without learning the language first. I truly don't mean to be mean, but who cares whether you believe it or not? You don't know anything about the subject.


YOU nonetheless seem to be an expert on the subject, at least in your own mind.....

Tell me then, if I were to somehow be transported back in time to a time about ten minutes prior to the "Big Bang(TM)", would my wrist watch stop working (because time didn't exist yet...)??
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 05:42 pm
I really suspect gunga has no idea his latest question constitutes at once a screaming declaration of ignorance and a classic absurdity.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 05:48 pm
Thomas wrote:
Science doesn't have the answer to everything, and no good scientist claims that it does. The creationist response to science not explaining everything is to throw up ones hands and exclaim: "therefore, the answer must be god. And by all means let's not research the mystery away, lest we diminish the range of questions that god is the answer to." Good scientists will have a very different reaction. They will say, "let's do more research so we can answer more interesting questions!" The point of science isn't that it knows everything. It's to be curious about everything.


Good luck, Boss.

We have explained this countless times, dozens upon dozens of times, in dozens of threads of this type (Gunga Din is particularly fond of the dodge which consists of pointing out what scientists do not know, or allegedly do not know--and therefore advocating the vigorous ejection of one's first-born in conjunction with the used bath water). It never does any good to point this out. Gunga will be back with yet another specious claim about what science does not know.

Gunga, however, lacks the character of the truly devout and committed religionist. The member "real life," for example, which vigorously imply that absent all the answers from science, he gets to posit his god as the unquestionable source, because he knows his god has all the answers. Someone such as Rex Red, if you can catch him in a coherent moment, will assert it outright. Gunga lacks the character and the moral courage, however, to state the case outright. "Intelligent design" in all its forms is a god-send (all puns intended) for those who lack that courage of conviction, or who are too embarrassed to introduce the truth of their belief into the discussion.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 06:07 pm
I echo Diana's statement and appreciate Timber pointing out that one need not have degrees to understand the basic gist of the topic. You guys are essentially a team that makes these threads worth visiting.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 06:16 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Tell me then, if I were to somehow be transported back in time to a time about ten minutes prior to the "Big Bang(TM)", would my wrist watch stop working (because time didn't exist yet...)??

It would work about as well as your compass would work one mile north of the North Pole. How well would your compass work one mile north of the North Pole? No geographer can answer that question. Nevertheless, you don't take this as evidence that the geographer's North Pole theory is bunk. Indeed, you're pretty sure the North Pole does exist.

What is true for the North Pole theory is also true for the Big Bang theory. It's the same shallow mystery, transposed from three dimensions into four.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 06:18 pm
Thomas wrote-

Quote:
." Good scientists will have a very different reaction. They will say, "let's do more research so we can answer more interesting questions!"


such as us how we can avoid having to take the garbage out or plough any fields or get shagged by anybody we don't fancy or win the figure skating championship or spend our lives as lift attendants or toilet cleaners or vicars pretending that baptising the fruit of the loins of a scrubber was a big deal etc etc

I don't blame them actually. I took up science myself for those very reasons.

It failed me.

It was boring ultimately. It had no jokes. It was tragic actually. And its literary style was the pits of the earth and a direct all out assault on language itself which is the most sacred thing of all.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 06:21 pm
It's just fascinating to see these lone voices in the wind who bring upon themselves all the challenges on their beliefs for ID, but are unable to provide any evidence they are right, but they keep coming for more. There seems to be some mental block that doesn't allow them to find truth in all the answers provided by the "a" team for science. Their song and dance all around truth seems anything but artificial. It must be fear.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 06:24 pm
Is fear abnormal c.i.?
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 06:42 pm
gunga wrote-

Quote:
Until somebody can show me a reason for believing otherwise, I am sticking with the idea that the universe is basically eternal.


There's whistling in the dark gunga. The condemned man ate a hearty breakfast which included every dietary negative.

I don't think there's any such thing as the North Pole. There's some dump in which nobody with any sense would live, apart from Santa Claus,
where it freezes the brass knackers off a pawnbroker's balls. As it is moving it is unlocatable unless you freeze time and Heisenberg reckoned that was impoosible.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 06:52 pm
Not abnormal, spendi. There are too many with the same belief system for it to be abnormal. Different folks live under different strokes for their reality. "Abnormal" is a subjective value anywhos.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 06:57 pm
Red herring c.i. Nothing to do with "same belief system".

The question was -is fear abnormal?

Under any belief system including the one that believes belief is stupid.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 06:59 pm
You shudda asked the direct question from the start. Fear can be rational or irrational. You pick.
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akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 07:10 pm
Ros,

I used to be a lot more content with the BB-EU hypothesis (even preached it) Sad till I ran across several Phd's who disagreed. What's worse is some who changed their minds. Under pressure is a possibility, but I am becoming a bit paranoid. (Einstein and Hoyle)

So far I have read some fifty titles on similar subjects, and taken a course on tape entitled "Freshman Astronomy". I have done this so that hopefully I would learn enough to be able to spot "snake oil" when I saw it.

There is quite a bit of snake oil out there Crying or Very sad . More than I would ever have believed seven years ago Crying or Very sad Consequently I have attempted the math myself using the figures for "z" that are published by the automated observatory whose name escapes me now. There is a problem with quasars that IMO should have killed off the "BB".

Farmer, as a subset of the cosmos Earth does not need to be eternal.
I can have no opinion on the shortages of longlived isotopes.

Several years ago you explained the brachiation of species very nicely.
I think that you know some shiite, particularly in your fields of interest.

If you "know" the name of God, or ferric sulphate for that matter, Then it would be a fact and no Phd is able to argue.

If we "knew" that the Universe is expanding there could be no arguement.
Halton Arp and Eric J. Lerner probably wouldn't have been able to write books about it without being laughed off stage.

Since Phd's can't find a "Hubble Constant"(should be a fairly straightforward problem) and The Rev. Jesse Jackson, and the Ayatollah Khomeni cannot agree on the characteristics of God (a rather straight forward fact) perhaps us common people may make a rational supposition that neither actually exists Exclamation

If the Hubble Constant does not exist the BB takes another hit. I'd wager that it'll keep taking them for a while.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 07:16 pm
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
Fear can be rational or irrational. You pick.


Seems rational to me.

I have no problem with fear. I probably owe my survival to it. I should think anybody with no fear might not survive infancy.

You presented it as a weakness not me. As if people who had beliefs due to fear had something wrong with them.

Is having no fear a characteristic of atheists?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Dec, 2006 07:17 pm
akaMech, I don't find it necessary to agree or disagree with PhDs about our universe - whether it's expanding or not. What matters is what we value as "my life." You can shirnk or expand that concept to your heart's content, untiil you find the right balance for you, and limit it to planet earth. It's enough to keep oneself busy for a lifetime.
0 Replies
 
 

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