THE NBA, DRESS CODES, PUBLIC POLICY, and the ACLU.

I don't really agree with what the NBA is doing. They're not school children, they're adults, professional athletes. I can understand telling these guys not to wear offensive t-shirts, but how often do you see that?

Do you disagree with dress codes in general, Slappy? Or just for sports teams?

An employer has the right to enforce a dress code for their employees regardless of the type, public or private. Many NBA Teams already have some form of dress code for their players.

Schools, imo, should also have this right towards students.

I do not see why this is even an issue re: NBA.

We all have choices in this regard. My boss insists we all come to work dressed professionally. I can choose not to and work someplace else.

No, not in general. But professional athletes shouldn't be restricted to what they wear during interviews and public relations. They're entertainers...their customers(fans) aren't going to increase/decrease going to games based on how these guys dress off the court. I don't think anyone really cares.

However, if you go to a nice restaurant, you don't want to see your server wearing a tank top. There's a difference. He's serving your food, not entertaining you.

Obviously the NBA is a business, and yes ownership can do whatever they want, but I just don't see much reason behind it. They want to change the image. The NBA is hurting in other areas more than image.

It's apparent the NBA wants to expamd their base from the so called "hip-hop" generation and they feel this may be helpful to that end.

How do you get around the problem of "violating the students' or players civil rights" Woiyo? Yesterday, our regular afternoon radio talk show host was out with the 'flu, and his much more liberal producer took over with a diatribe about how the NBA dress code is racially motivated. Is it?

Does the individual "culture" of pro basketball players or highschool students trump the right of those in charge to set the rules?

There's a disconnect between the culture of the players and that of the fans, hence the problem. The dress code can be seen as somehow racially motivated only in that the majority of the players are black, while the fans are white.

But I assume that guys like Nash would also have to change their ways, so I don't see this is as racist. And I do think the league can create a code...

Well there is certainly a disconnect beween certain 'cultural distinctions' and ordinary people.

As a woman alone, if I am driving along and see a bunch of guys in hip hop pants, chains, sleeveless shirts, tattoos, caps on backwards, and other 'gangish' attire out in the middle of the street, I turn and go another way. It doesn't make any different whether the group is Anglo, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, or Black or any combination of these. They may be perfectly harmless, but I don't take the chance.

However, if there is a group of well groomed men in business suits or construction clothes/hard hats etc. in the street, I drive right on past and wave. Again it does not make any difference what race or ethnic group they might be.

The NBA has often seemed to represent the groups that emulate the gang bangers much more than professional or working class.

Now there are two schools of thought:
Some (including the owners) think NBA players, as role models for the young, should be encouraging them to see professional and working class as the norm rather than the hiphop culture.

Some think NBA players have more influence and thus positive effect on the kids if they emulate the kids' culture and fit into that.

And even as I write this, there will be some who will object to any inference that 'gang bangers' are 'black' as it does seem to be an issue that there are a disproportionate number of black players in the NBA.

NBA players are young -- some of them very young -- and they dress accordingly. It's their taste. They also spend a lot of money on video games and cars, as opposed to annuities and stock options. It's 'cause their young. And, it's also because a lot either came out of poverty or at least what we would call the lower economic class (this is men of any race, BTW) or from outside the US.

There is a dress code for coaches. Trainers tend to wear comfortable clothes because they often need to contort (e. g. to ask a prone player if he is all right) and, unfortunately, they can get blood on themselves (sorry, that was icky). But coaches are required to dress up.

Now, I like Shaq, and he dresses up, but I also like Iverson, and he does not. My opinions of them don't change in either direction because of their attire and, in fact, I suspect I'll find it odd and perhaps amusing to see AI in a suit and tie. Hmmm.

Will come back to this.

PS I don't believe that the other three big sports, hockey, baseball and football have such dress codes. Is that belief correct?

Jespah, I don't know if the leagues have dress codes, but certain teams do. Take NYY (please): no facial hair, and no mullet for Randy. Maybe not such a bad idea, in his case...

What's looming large (locally, at least) is restrictions on where players can drink and hang out. A Seahawk wound up in intensive care this weekend when he was beaten up outside a club. Now that neighborhood is off limits to the players.

What civil rights are we violating??

As an employer, I have the right to set standards for conduct of my employees during the times they represent the company they are employed by.

McDonalds employees must wear a uniform during their time at work, for example. Disney employees also have strict dress codes.

So why can not the NBA establish a dress code for their employees when they represent the team?

With respect to school children, my view is children have no "rights" with respect to this issue. If the school mandates a dress code, they must be followed.

I don't think the ownership is violating any rights either...but I don't think they're going to accomplish much by enforcing dress codes.

Movie stars had a much better image with the public when the Hollywood studios enforced strict rules regarding dress, speech, and conduct.

A few decades ago, educators commanded much more respect, maintained much better discipline, and accomplished much better education took place when rules of speech, dress, and deportment were enforced in the schools both for teachers and students. Kids who are 'dressed up' behave differently than kids do when dressed in well worn jeans and cutoff tees.

Businesses know that the man who speaks, dresses, and conducts himself professionally will be seen to have much more credibility than the one who does not.

Is it dress that accomplishes this?

The NBA has a pitiful public image and most people do not see the players as role models for their children. Should they? What difference could it make? The owners think that kids will be influenced by seeing their heroes in business or otherwise appropriate attire instead of being dressed like gangbangers. Could they be right? Could they actually have an altruistic motive here?

When a culture 'keeps the brothers down', isn't it worth showing the kids that people they idolize do things differently?

I don't know honestly. But I feel at least a small spark of possibility that they may be on to something.

I don't agree that dress always translates into a person's quality. A conservatively dressed kid may be better behaved, but he or she isn't necessarily a better student.

While I do agree that school uniforms (or a strict dress code) are perfectly fine, or even preferable, I don't want to go overboard into thinking that we need little zombies in the classroom to assure order and learning occur!

Foxfyre, do you think that having a school uniform policy makes a positive difference in attendance, violence, or academic performance?

Though this isn't directed at me I will answer.

Yes.

I don't know if it is true in every case, Sozobe, but where I have seen it tried, it made a difference and most of the students liked it once they got used to the idea.

I live in the professional world of using research to see how well certain interventions to change behavior work.

Has there been any research on whether dress codes improve classroom behavior and learning? That I'd like to see. Otherwise, we're just giving our opinions on what we think must happen.

I'm in favor of the codes, mainly, to level the playing field for the kids whose parents can afford to clothe them in the latest cool togs, and those who parents can't.

But even poor kids can be taught to wash their face and hands, to wear reasonably clean clothes, dress neatly with a shirt tucked in and a proper belt, etc. even if the clothes come from the corner thrift shop. Even poor kids can be taught manners and respect for authority and an appreciation for excellence, to speak properly, and to beocme a positive part of society instead of a rebel against it, and making the best of what opportunities come your way. This is this point social leaders (Bill Cosby, Shelby Steele, Thomas Sowell, John Leo, Walter Williams et al) have been saying again and again and again. It is nonproductive, even destructive to reinforce behavior, dress, speech, etc. that is a ticket to permanent unemployment, welfare, or crime.

A different image more geared to personal and social success is what the NBA owners say they hope the NBA players, heroes to the hiphop culture, can accomplish by their own example.