THE NBA, DRESS CODES, PUBLIC POLICY, and the ACLU.

A2k thread from 2003 on somewhat related issues

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Well, I think of myself as "old school", Foxfyre, but you have me beat. I'll leave it at that...

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I asked 'cause we just had a big discussion about this and similar issues and the answer seems to be "no". Uniforms don't seem to actually help anything and sometimes seem to have the opposite effect.

Here's what I said on the other thread:

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OK, found something scholarly about uniforms:

http://www.gate.net/~rwms/UniformDWilliams.html

Excerpts:

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The University of Notre Dame study also belies the claims that uniforms improve discipline: "Our findings indicate that student uniforms have no direct effect on . . . behavioral problems" (Brunsma and Rockquemore 1). So, despite the claims that the improving disciplinary numbers being issued by Long Beach, California, are attributable to uniforms, the data seems to contradict those assertions.

Another example of a district's policy failing to produce the results often touted by uniform supporters is the Miami-Dade County, Florida policy. In an effort to obtain the dramatically positive discipline results reported by Long Beach, Miami-Dade County implemented a similar policy in many of their elementary and middle schools beginning in the 1996-97 school year. The results were, at best, disappointing and, at worst, alarming. The elementary schools with mandatory uniforms saw a slight decrease in discipline problems. Unfortunately, the high hopes held by the district for immediate, significant improvement in discipline were not realized. Sabrina Walters, a reporter for the Miami Herald writes, "The drastic decline uniform supporters had envisioned did not occur" (1). Alarmingly, in middle schools, where uniforms were mandatory, fights nearly doubled over a four-year period from 186 in 1996-97 to 284 in 1997-98.[/i] The district administrators attempted to explain away this startling fact by pointing out that fights increased at nonuniform schools as well from 152 to 201 over the same period (1). The conclusion of the Miami-Dade Study states,

This study has not proven the unequivocal effectiveness of mandatory uniforms. If school uniforms promoted educative behavior, as powerfully as conjectured, the incidents of safety infractions should have declined dramatically subsequent to the establishment of uniform policies at elementary schools in Miami-Dade County. However, as indicated the changes in frequency of these infractions were independent of which dress code was operative at a school. (Miami-Dade 4-5)

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Improved academic achievement is an additional benefit frequently attributed to mandatory uniform policies. Consistently, however, data from true scientific study seems to contradict this claim. In the study performed by Drs. Brunsma and Rockquemore, test scores at schools having mandatory uniforms actually dropped (1). The school district in Long Beach, California, continues to produce test scores significantly below the state average despite years of mandatory uniforms ("STAR California" and "STAR Long"). Despite claims set forth by proponents that uniforms improve academic performance, there is no empirical data to lend validation to these claims.

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Supporters further claim that uniforms improve attendance. According to proponents of these policies, uniforms improve school attitude and spirit which brings about a net decrease in truancy and absenteeism. In Long Beach, California, attendance has slowly improved in elementary and middle schools since their mandatory uniform policy has been in effect. Attendance has also improved at the high schools where no uniforms are required, at a more statistically significant rate ("In Schools" 2). This would seem to indicate an overall trend rather than uniform-induced improvement. Further study of these statistics indicates that the trend of improved attendance has been ongoing since 1990 (2). In Polk County, Florida, where the most restrictive, district wide uniform policy in the nation was set in place in 1999, the opposite of Long Beach attendance results is emerging. In the 1998-99 school year there were 506 truancy cases investigated in Polk County. By January 2000, the district was on track to break that record for the 1999-2000 school year (McBride "Schools" 1). The truancy rate is so bad that in an effort to curtail it, the Superintendent of Schools is seeking to criminally prosecute the worst offenders, including a seven-year-old boy (Shah 1). The effect of truancy and absenteeism was also addressed in the University of Notre Dame study. No direct causation was shown (Brunsma and Rockquemore 1). There is no scientific data which shows that uniforms have a positive impact on attendance. In fact, it is possible that in some cases, absenteeism and truancy may increase under these policies.

Then there's also bunch about the problems with the "opt out" policy -- basically, having a school uniform policy is illegal without an "opt out" aspect. But the kids who do in fact "opt out" have lots of problems. And there are enforcement issues... etc., etc.

(All emphases mine.)

Another source:

http://www.aprod.org/myths.htm

But I'm not actually that interested in having this kind of discussion at the moment, I realized after I posted my question, so will leave it there.

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I have no reason to dispute the results of the study, but as I said, my own limited experience with school uniforms involving family members was different. The schools that have banned gang colors and attire and enforce a dress code here in Albuquerque report good results.

At any rate I hope this discussion does not dissolve into the pros and cons of school uniforms per se, but I do strongly believe that appropriate dress in any venue will produce a different impression that inappropriate dress. Based on that belief, I have to be curious if NBA players are indeed sufficient role models for kids to influence the kids attitude about dress, conduct, ambitions, etc.?

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The difference between dress codes in school and dress codes in the NBA is that school attendance is mandatory. If a child stays out of school because he feels the dress codes require him to be something he is not, he is breaking the law.

With NBA, I would think it is a matter of what is in the contract. If the contract says the League has the right to set a dress code for those times a player can be said to be representing his team or League, then that's it. Suits and ties are harldy unreasonable-many people wear them to work, with no complaints.

Oh, the sacrifices the League requires of players who get paid $350,000 a year minimum, and three and a half million dollars median, salary per year.

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That's similar to a discussion I had earlier with my husband, KW. All spectator enterprises whether sports, Nascar, theater, motion pictures, ballet, symphony, etc. are dependent on the public's participation for their existence. Some reap enormous incomes from such participation and it doesn't seem too much to expect them to give something back to those who admire and support them even if it is only a positive image and example for the kids.

You did raise a valid point, perhaps inadvertently. Is it cricket to allow the players to dress like gang bangers for the last decade or so and now change the rules and require them to dress for success when representing their team and the NBA?

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Foxfyre wrote:

You did raise a valid point, perhaps inadvertently. Is it cricket to allow the players to dress like gang bangers for the last decade or so and now change the rules and require them to dress for success when representing their team and the NBA?

Depends. If the contract stipulates that the players' union has to agree to a change in the dress code, then the League is out of line in changing it by themselves.

If, however, the contract says the League has the right to set the dress code for those times the player can be reasonably be said to be representing his team or the League, then they can change the dress code at will. About the only recourse I can think the players might have is if the dress code is made bizarre or unreasonable-which suits and ties certainly are not.

They covered this in the NY Daily News when it first happened a couple of days ago, and from the inference I can draw from the quotes, the news article and the sports columnist writing about it, I gather that the League has the right to do what it is doing.

They probably even have the right to set the rules for hair length and style, (which they have not done), though I would strongly advise them to steer clear of that one. I believe such a rule would strike the public, especially the young public the League needs to appeal to, as being out of touch. However, with the prevailing hairstyle being the shaved head, this is hardly an issue at this time, LOL.

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So if it is legal for the NBA to do this--they may still have to get past an inevitable ACLU lawsuit if some commentaries I've read or heard are correct--then there is still the charge of 'racism' because so many of the players are black and 'dress black'.

I am reminded of a comment by Thomas Sowell in his most recent column "Random thoughts on the passing scene":

Quote:

The controversies surrounding Bill Cosby should force more black leaders to decide whether their top priority is protecting the image of blacks or promoting the future of blacks, especially the younger generation.

Of course observing some of the dress I see every day in this hip hop generation, the same analysis could be made regardless of race/ethnicity etc. But then every generation rebels a bit in their choice of music, speech, and dress, so I honestly don't know how big a deal it is. The fact remains, however, that a disproportionate number of black Americans are growing up and remain in poverty and violence and Americans like Thomas Sowell and others think the only thing that is going to change that is a complete change of attitude re dress, speech, and conduct.

It's an interesting concept.

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Foxfyre, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the lawsuit from the ACLU. I think that's just a bunch of talk from....guess where....talk radio hosts.

The American Civil Liberties Union did not get involved when the players were treated like mere chattel some time ago. Then, each player signed a one year contract, and if he didn't like the terms he could not play for another team. Teams were forbidden, by League rules, from negotiating with the player, even though his one year contract had expired!!

Sounds incredible now, but that was the way sports worked. The great Al Kaline, who never spent a day in the minor leagues, went straight from high school to twenty years with the Detroit Tigers, each year under a one year contract. He could not go to another team during the entire twenty years, even though his contract expired twenty times.

That was a real issue, as was the issue some years back when the football owners locked out the real players in a union dispute and brought in scabs to play several games during the season. The ACLU stayed out of that one too.

Dress codes are not new to team sports, whether professional or college. Many teams required team blazers when travelling eith the team on the bus. About the only bone of contention I can think of with this policy is when the player can be said to be representing his team. If an interview with a writer is held at the stadium, I can see the policy applying. If the interview is at the player's home, or at a restaurant, which is not unusual, I would think the player would be allowed to wear what he wishes. Although if the League wants to be real persnickety, I suppose they could say he's representing the League even during those interviews. I do think that most people would think if the League did that-regulate the player's dress in interviews away from the stadium, the team bus or the team hotel-that would be going a bit overboard.

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I will admit total ignorance on contract policies for pro sports teams. But I think it was on NPR that I first heard the ACLU mentioned as having a case here.

I have seen the ACLU go into action on behalf of the students when the schools attempted to enforce dress codes here in Albuquerque. The link is to a Georgia case but there are many many like it across the country. I can't imagine the ACLU would duck a juicy high profile similar case involving the NBA. All it will take is one player getting called on the carpet or fined for a violation of the dress code.

http://www.acluga.org/briefs/dress.code.html

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And I've been thinking of some unheralded second string type going to the grocery store in his baggies. I suppose where your time is your own is marked on paper somewhere.

And I suppose players move toward sophistication re the larger world's dress code being something they want to adopt for themselves.

But who was the Chicago player with the hair, oh you all know who I mean, he was mr. style. An artist in his own writ. Tricky this rules of dress (etc) business.. as in a way they are rules to be broken..

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Are you thinking of Dennis Rodman?

Yes, he added color and fun to the NBA. But I wonder how positive an image that was as a role model. Smile

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Yes, Rodman. From as far away as I am I liked him.

Given, as someone else purported, sports is actually entertainment, one needs the serious player and the clown or evil purveyor. Given one is the owner and wants profits.

I've read sports stories for decades. There was always some level of promotional fluorish... not always on purpose.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I can't imagine the ACLU would duck a juicy high profile similar case involving the NBA.

I can. The ACLU did not get involved in professional sports cases when far weightier issues were involved. The ACLU has weightier things to worry about, usually, than professional sports.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I have seen the ACLU go into action on behalf of the students when the schools attempted to enforce dress codes here in Albuquerque. The link is to a Georgia case but there are many many like it across the country.

Sure. But there are no similarities between professional sports and a publicly supported elementary or high school.

The professional athlete signs a contract, and is bound by the terms of that contract. The student signs no contract at all. In fact, he is subject to the laws of the state that say he must go to that public school or make difficult-to-do alternative arrangements. Public schoool is the only realistic way to satisfy the law, for most students.

If the athlete finds the terms of the NBA-a private organization-intolerable, he simply walks away. Considering the salary structure-$350,000 a year minimum, $3.5 million yearly median-that seems difficult to imagine. Still, if he does so, nobody is going to arrest him.

If the student feels the dress code demands that he pretend to be something he is not and walks away from school, he is breaking the law. The law forces him to go to school. This is a whole different situation than the privately owned NBA.

There is just no connection between a public school with legally mandated attendance, and a private sports league where all members have trained agents and sign lucrative contracts before they enter.

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I am astonished that you extrapolated what I said into an assumption that I think there is a connection between a pro sports team and a highschool. I, however, have watched the ACLU for a long time and, while they still get on the right side of a case now and then, I no longer believe their motives to be entirely altruistic or even handed or to be in the best interests of the person(s) they defend. So yes, I can see them going to bat for the poor, oppressed player with a disadvantaged background and being picked on by the big money bosses.

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Foxfyre wrote:

I am astonished that you extrapolated what I said into an assumption that I think there is a connection between a pro sports team and a highschool.

That's because you did. You stated that since the ACLU got involved in a dress code in a public high school, you expect their involvement in a dress code case in a privately owned sports league inevitable. As if there is any similarity between a professional sports league, all of whose members signed contracts, and a public high school, none of whose students signed contracts and more importantly, whose attendance is mandated by law.

Foxfyre wrote:

I, however, have watched the ACLU for a long time...

So have I, Foxfyre, so have I.

Foxfyre wrote:

and, while they [the ACLU] still get on the right side of a case now and then, I no longer believe their motives to be entirely altruistic...

Then what is their motivation? Money? Most of these lawyers could be making a lot more doing personal injury from car crashes than what they are doing.

Foxfyre wrote:

...or even handed or to be in the best interests of the person(s) they defend....

Care to produce some examples? Laughing

I think the ACLU has done an excellent job protecting the civil rights and liberties of Americans.

Foxfyre wrote:

So yes, I can see them going to bat for the poor, oppressed player with a disadvantaged background and being picked on by the big money bosses.

Well, they haven't done it yet. And there have been far weightier issues in sports than this one, as I have explained before.

Let's see what the ACLU does before we analyze why it would do it, shall we? My own inclination is that if the player signed a clause giving the League the right to set a dress code at the stadium or arena, on the team bus or plane, or at team events, then there isn't much to argue about here. But let's see, before we condemn.

Should have known you were going to turn this into an anti-ACLU rant when you dragged Sowell in this.

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kelticwizard wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
I am astonished that you extrapolated what I said into an assumption that I think there is a connection between a pro sports team and a highschool.

That's because you did. You stated that since the ACLU got involved in a dress code in a public high school, you expect their involvement in a dress code case in a privately owned sports league inevitable. As if there is any similarity between a professional sports league, all of whose members signed contracts, and a public high school, none of whose students signed contracts and more importantly, whose attendance is mandated by law.

No I did not. I used a highschool case to show what I believe the ACLU agenda to be and the type of case they love to handle. I in no way compared a highschool to the NBA.

Foxfyre wrote:
I, however, have watched the ACLU for a long time...
So have I, Foxfyre, so have I.

Foxfyre wrote:
and, while they [the ACLU] still get on the right side of a case now and then, I no longer believe their motives to be entirely altruistic...

Then what is their motivation? Money? Most of these lawyers could be making a lot more doing personal injury from car crashes than what they are doing.

Power, recognition, feeling righteous, all are powerful motivations for idealistic volunteers and money is the motivation for those getting paid--they cater to a particular base that keeps them funded.

Here is the promo they use to solicit donations on their website:

Quote:
The ACLU needs your help to defend our most basic freedoms! The Bush Administration is rolling back our rights in the name of homeland security . . . extremists on the Christian Right have the ear of the White House . . . and the federal judiciary is increasingly hostile to civil liberties.

As I said, I think there are times they take on the right side of an issue, but for the most part they are anti-traditional values and anti-establishment dating back to their counter culture roots.

Foxfyre wrote:
...or even handed or to be in the best interests of the person(s) they defend....

Care to produce some examples?
I think the ACLU has done an excellent job protecting the civil rights and liberties of Americans.

I don't. Reference the previous quote.

Foxfyre wrote:
So yes, I can see them going to bat for the poor, oppressed player with a disadvantaged background and being picked on by the big money bosses.

Well, they haven't done it yet. And there have been far weightier issues in sports than this one, as I have explained before.

There hadn't been a dress code enforced before this. You accused me of comparing a highschool case to the NBA. How are you not comparing previous management issues with a dress code?

Let's see what the ACLU does before we analyze why it would do it, shall we? My own inclination is that if the player signed a clause giving the League the right to set a dress code at the stadium or arena, on the team bus or plane, or at team events, then there isn't much to argue about here. But let's see, before we condemn.

Who is condemning? You think we should discuss nothing that hasn't become engraved in granite? We should not explore the pros and cons and ramifications of a policy until the issue is decided and/or the ACLU is involved? Shall I hold you to that?

Should have known you were going to turn this into an anti-ACLU rant when you dragged Sowell in this.

Why? So far as I know, Sowell has not taken on the ACLU as a cause. Please note the title of the thread, however. Excuse me for including one of the topics of the thread. Sorry you think my end of the discussion is a 'rant', but I hereby declare myself the winner. When you have to attack me in order to participate, you've got nothing. Smile

As for as agenda, I have yet to see the ACLU take on a case defending a person's right to be religious in public, but many many cases are recorded of the ACLU protesting any symbol or manifestation of religion in public. Surely I don't need to cite those cases for you.

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Once you start letting old white guys dictate sartorial standards you'll soon have NBA players in polyester leisure suits with white patent leather shoes and belts.
For christsake our attire is merely a costume....................IMO

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Perhaps, Rodeman, but a costume based on the fashion sense and style of a particular people and culture. Some thing the style should be a statement reflecting our image of ability, competence, according to our customs. For better or worse, our clothing does say something about who we are: there is a 'black' counter culture of chronic poverty and unemployment. The kids caught in it who are not pro-sports material are likely to be stuck in it unless their idols demonstrate a different dress-for-success image that the kids might then emulate and become comfortable with.

As a business owner, are you more likely to hire the kid dressed in neat conventional clothes or the one in hip hop pants, dew-rag, and chains?

But then there are those who say that we are mostly talking about black players being role models to black kids, this is racist, and if they keep beating that drum, that is likely to become the issue more than trying to improve the opportunities for ghetto kids.

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THE NBA, DRESS CODES, PUBLIC POLICY, and the ACLU.

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