11
   

Looking for advice. Was I assaulted?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Thu 29 Jan, 2015 11:59 pm
@whitebars,
That was worth a good laugh.
0 Replies
 
nononono
 
  0  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 05:35 am
@whitebars,
Oh my god! This thread has officially reached FULL retard phase!

whitebars said:
Quote:
I'm pretty sure now that Olivier5 and nono are fore sure misognyists, and nono is also a rapist.


Oh course, because literally ANY man who disagrees with a woman is a misogynist/rapist, naturally!

whitebars said:
Quote:
The only person in this thread who I think I can for sure agree with is Firefly. I'm pretty sure we think alike and are the same kind of femnists. So I don't know why she has attacked me for essentially saying the same thing that she says.


That doesn't surprise me at all! Nutjobbery runs in the feminist framework! Fruitcakes tend to stick together!

Kolyo said:
Quote:
...so you bring back your vile sock puppet


Apparently I'm everybody on A2K. I've been accused of being: Hawkeye, Buttermilk, firefly, Billrm, Also some other racist whose name I forget that izzy always accuses me of being. Yep, apparently I get around...

Kolyo said:
Quote:
EDIT -- And ... what a shocker, as soon as "whitebars" appeared, firefly's score dropped from "3" to "2", and hawkeye's went up from "0" to "1".


Because 1) Legitimacy of logic should ALWAYS be placed on a numerical score that the dumbass public decides on. Because there are literally ZERO idiots out there in the public, of course. 2) Sound arguments should always be disregarded based on popularity. What's "right" should always be determined based on polls and numbers.

firefly said:
Quote:
You tell me why women, and feminists, like Jessica Valenti, or Gloria Steinem, both singled out by nononono, should have to "campaign for the love and respect of men"? Why would anyone have the impression these women, both of whom have always enjoyed loving relationships with the men in their lives, and married men, harbor deep personal hostility toward all men in general?


Paul Elam is married to a woman too! So is Warren Farrell! So I guess by firefly's logic, that makes them incapable of sexism/bigotry! Unless of course firefly is full of **** and hypocritical in her reasoning...

whitebars said:
Quote:
I wasn't aware that I was expected to meet certain requirements to write here. Make sure you call the police and make them aware of this terrible offense I've committed.


...but that made me laugh my ass off! You get a plus one for your sarcasm whitebars! Laughing



This is hands down the most ape-**** crazy thread I've ever read on A2K...
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 06:00 am
@firefly,
Quote:
You want advocacy groups for women, like N.O.W., to come out against practices like male circumcision, although that sort of issue is not within N.O.W.'s reason for being.

I don't understand why you want to argue this point so much; it was just a suggestion. The NOW Statement of Purpose (adopted at the organizing conference in Washington, D.C., October 29, 1966) quoted bellow has ample justification for it. It specifically mentions "to give active support to the common cause of equal rights for all those who suffer discrimination and deprivation" and that "men are also victims of the current half-equality between the sexes":

Quote:
We realize that women's problems are linked to many broader questions of social justice; their solution will require concerted action by many groups. Therefore, convinced that human rights for all are indivisible, we expect to give active support to the common cause of equal rights for all those who suffer discrimination and deprivation, and we call upon other organizations committed to such goals to support our efforts toward equality for women.[...]

We believe that women will do most to create a new image of women by acting now, and by speaking out in behalf of their own equality, freedom, and human dignity -- not in pleas for special privilege, nor in enmity toward men, who are also victims of the current, half-equality between the sexes -- but in an active, self-respecting partnership with men. By so doing, women will develop confidence in their own ability to determine actively, in partnership with men, the conditions of their life, their choices, their future and their society.


http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/nowstate.html

This should cover support to men when they are victims of discrimination... In any case it does not prevent it. The first para in the quote describes precisely what i meant.

Quote:
It's up to Islamic women and feminists, wherever they are located, to define and address their own issues within the context of their cultures and religious beliefs--and that's just what they are doing. The same is true for orthodox Jewish women, many of whom, even living in Brooklyn, NY, are "forced" into pre-arranged marriages with men they have never met, as their religious sects dictate. It is wrong, and unbelievably arrogant, for outsiders to try to impose a Western conception of feminism, or a Christian conception of feminism, on other cultures and religious belief systems.

Here too we will have to disagree. I don't think of feminism as 'christian', nor of any version of feminism as inherently christian... I would hope that the US and state laws safeguarding gender equality apply in Brooklyn and that the New York NOW chapter does some work across East River.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 06:06 am
@whitebars,
Quote:
The only person in this thread who I think I can for sure agree with is Firefly. I'm pretty sure we think alike and are the same kind of femnists. So I don't know why she has attacked me for essentially saying the same thing that she says.

You hate men, whitebars. Nobody wants to associate with that...
Olivier5
 
  0  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 06:33 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
In Canada, education is controlled by politicians and administrators - not teachers. Once again, male-dominated. It's the reality here.

Teachers and parents have great power and responsibility in shaping the next generations, including female teachers and parents. Women also constitute half the electorate. The pure victim discourse gets old.

0 Replies
 
Eliusa
 
  0  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 11:02 am
@Olivier5,
@whitebars,
Quote:
You hate men, whitebars. Nobody wants to associate with that...
------------------

Maybe she has her reasons Wink
Kolyo
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 11:02 am
@nononono,
nononono wrote:

Oh my god! This thread has officially reached FULL retard phase!


Open invitation:

There are people who come to this site asking math questions. Feel free, at any time, to prove you have half a brain by answering one. Any time. There's even a guy who shows up again and again asking simple algebra questions. Can you do basic algebra?
Kolyo
 
  4  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 11:06 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

You hate men, whitebars. Nobody wants to associate with that...


Everybody but you, Olivier, recognizes "whitebars" is a fraud. Even nono admitted as much in a previous post in this thread. The only question is whether it is someone from this site or not. I admit that is an open question.
Eliusa
 
  2  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 11:13 am
@Kolyo,
Open question, open invitation...is your zipper closed?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 11:46 am
@Eliusa,
Quote:
Maybe she has her reasons

Reasons for hatred are always easy to find.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 11:56 am
@Kolyo,
Quote:
Everybody but you, Olivier, recognizes "whitebars" is a fraud.

I am not in the business of accusing people without proof, sorry. And I don't howl with the wolves either, and never gang up against anyone. To each his own approach to posting. I'm a loner.

0 Replies
 
Eliusa
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 12:02 pm
@Olivier5,
Disagree. I've been looking for a long while and can't. So not that easy Smile
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 12:03 pm
@Eliusa,
Whom do you want to hate?
Eliusa
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 01:55 pm
@Olivier5,
Person I love.
firefly
 
  2  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 02:25 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
One of the first feminist books I read (Les Enfants de Jocaste, by Christiane Olivier) decades ago was precisely about that, about the vast power that women have in education, and how they use it sometimes to enforce and maintain gender inequality...Educators hold more power to shape the next generation than anybody else. Tripping about the 'patriarchy' will never achieve anything,

Understanding the historical role of patriarchy helps to explain how education became so female-dominated. Teaching, and nursing, were among the few career options available to women when they began to enter the work force in significant numbers.

Men aren't being excluded from teaching, they are excluding themselves.

If you want to attract more men to teaching, so that there is more of a male presence and influence in classrooms, particularly on the elementary level, you have to change the status of teaching so it is a more highly regarded profession, especially for men.

Quote:
Why Don’t More Men Go Into Teaching?
By MOTOKO RICH
SEPT. 6, 2014

AS Tommie Leaders, 22, approached college graduation last spring, his professors told him he would have no trouble getting hired. “You’re a guy teaching elementary, ” they said.

Mr. Leaders, who earned his education degree from the University of Nebraska in June, started teaching fifth grade last month in Council Bluffs, Iowa. He is the only male teacher in the building.

Across the country, teaching is an overwhelmingly female profession, and in fact has become more so over time. More than three-quarters of all teachers in kindergarten through high school are women, according to Education Department data, up from about two-thirds three decades ago. The disparity is most pronounced in elementary and middle schools, where more than 80 percent of teachers are women.

Educators, advocates and lawmakers fight bitterly about tenure, academic standards and the prevalence of testing, but one thing most sides tend to agree on is the importance of raising the status of teaching so the profession will attract the best candidates.

A change in the gender imbalance could sway the way teaching is regarded. Jobs dominated by women pay less on average than those with higher proportions of men, and studies have shown that these careers tend to enjoy less prestige as well.

Although teaching was once a career for men, by the time women began
entering the work force in large numbers in the 1960s, teaching, along with nursing, was one of very few careers open to them. But despite inroads that women have made entering previously male-dominated fields, there has not been a corresponding flow of men into teaching and nursing.

“We’re not beyond having a cultural devaluation of women’s work,” said Philip N. Cohen, a sociologist at the University of Maryland. “So that if a job is done primarily by women, people tend to believe it has less value.”

Although teachers have more time off and, at least for now, better benefits and job security than many other professions, their pay has remained essentially stagnant since 1970 in inflation-adjusted terms. The median pay for an elementary school teacher is now about $40,000.

According to Maria Fitzpatrick, an economist at Cornell University who analyzed census data, women who work outside of teaching have seen their pay rise by about 25 percent since 1970 while average men’s wages in nonteaching jobs have actually fallen, also in inflation-adjusted terms. Still, men can earn much more, on average, outside of teaching, while women’s teaching salaries more closely match the average pay for women outside of education.

Because they are still the primary caregivers in families, women may be more attracted to the profession than men in part because they can work the same schedules as their children. Teachers can take a few years out of work to stay at home with babies or toddlers and return to the profession easily (although if they do, their salaries may lag behind those who don’t take time off). And although the recession caused many school districts to hand out pink slips, teachers generally have lower levels of unemployment than other college-educated Americans.

With so few men currently in teaching, other men may be less inclined to view it as a desirable option. “It will be less and less in their head that this is an occupation for males,” said Richard M. Ingersoll, a professor of education and sociology at the University of Pennsylvania who has analyzed education department data on the demographics of teaching. “There’s a snowball effect.”

Of course there are other reasons teaching may be devalued beyond the fact that so many women do it. After all, in countries like Finland and Singapore
— where students tend to perform better on academic tests than students in the United States — teachers are more highly regarded despite the fact that the gender imbalance looks similar at the front of the classroom. In the United States, where 42 percent of high school teachers are men, high school educators do not enjoy a higher status than those in elementary school.

Teachers unions argue that the swift adoption of new academic standards, the use of standardized tests to evaluate teachers’ job performance and efforts to overhaul tenure all make teaching a less attractive career for anyone.

“The reality of teaching right now is that it’s always been a hard job,” said Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers, the nation’s second largest teachers union. It’s “harder now than ever before, with less and less respect,” she said.

Deans of education departments lament the lack of men, but are not sure what to do about it. Susan H. Fuhrman, president of Teachers College at Columbia University, said she was puzzled by the persistent absence of men in elementary education programs, where women outnumber them nine to
one. “I do think it’s a vicious cycle,” she said. “Women went into it without other options and it was a low-status profession that was associated with women, and the fact that it’s now dominated by women inhibits the status from increasing.”

Simply recruiting more men into the profession is not likely to raise the quality of the teaching force.

And at a time when teachers are nowhere near to representing the racial diversity of America’s students, many educators argue that increasing the number of African-American and Latino teachers is a higher priority than simply bringing more men onto the job.

Both Teach for America, the group that places high-achieving college graduates in low-income schools for two-year stints, and Teach.org, a newly formed partnership between the Department of Education and several companies, teachers unions and other groups, have recently introduced initiatives aimed specifically at recruiting more racial minorities.

Still, some educators say that boys, who tend to struggle in school more than girls, could use more male role models, or simply people who understand them, in the classroom.

Some say the notion that boys need to be taught differently or by men simply underscores gender stereotypes.

Rafe Esquith, a 32-year veteran who teaches fifth grade at Hobart Boulevard Elementary School in Los Angeles and has written two books on teaching, hopes to show his students — a vast majority of whom come from poor families — “a guy who lives a different life than a lot of the male role models that they see.” Other than that, he said, the value of a man in the classroom “depends on the man, I think.”

Then again, some women may not be eager to open the profession to more men. Men who do become teachers tend to be promoted more quickly into senior administrative positions, said Christine L. Williams, a professor of sociology at the University of Texas who has studied the so-called glass escalator. Nearly half of all school principals are men. If educators are determined to get more men into classrooms, Professor Williams said, the best way would simply be to upgrade the conditions and pay of the job. “And that,” she said, “would positively impact the job for women as well.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/07/sunday-review/why-dont-more-men-go-into-teaching.html?_r=0

Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 03:22 pm
@firefly,
This is all very good. I do think we need more men as teachers in primary classes, etc. As a kid I had only female teachers throughout my entire primary school. Not that I found it a problem but now I realize that it was not fair. There seems to be some re-balancing in the French education system though. My son as had male teachers for three years now and I have male friends who are primary teachers, and proud to be. So it's going in the right direction gender-wise.

Over and beyond salary, the way the job is perceived in society is obviously important. A researcher in Belize (brilliant woman) was telling me that over there, a male teacher would simply not be able to find a girlfriend or wife because he would be assumed to be gay... It's not manly to be an educator in Belize. I am mentioning this because her point was that social change comes from within society, including from women themselves. Women are not powerless, and they are not only the victims of gender roles but also, partly, their enforcers... Which was my point in the message you replied to: I was telling Beth that women are the primary educators of the next generations, and thus had a lot of power to shape the next generations.

I like precise diagnoses because they lead to working solutions. I wouldn't know where to start if the enemy was "patriarchy" (or "matriarchy" or "fascism" or whatever). This is too vague and useless as a target. But once you realise that individuals' attitudes (including women's attitudes) are part of the problem you are trying to solve, it gives you a workable entry point: yourself and people around you.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 03:25 pm
@Eliusa,
That should be easy... Just wait for a couple of months. :-)
0 Replies
 
nononono
 
  -1  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 06:08 pm
@Kolyo,
Quote:
There are people who come to this site asking math questions. Feel free, at any time, to prove you have half a brain by answering one. Any time. There's even a guy who shows up again and again asking simple algebra questions. Can you do basic algebra?


So what you're saying is that mathematical knowledge is the only measure of intelligence?

....uh,huh.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 07:10 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I like precise diagnoses because they lead to working solutions.

Then, if the diagnosis is that boys are being educationally disadvantaged by a lack of male teachers on the primary level, the solution is for more men to go into the field.

Why do you focus on women's attitudes, when it's mainly men's attitudes toward elementary teaching that keep them from seeing it as a desirable career. Women, certainly women educators, have no desire to see teaching continue to be considered low status, poorly paid, "women's work". They'd like to see their profession more highly regarded and respected, and they're not keeping men out of it, many men just don't find it an appealing choice, or an appropriate choice for a man, and the same is true of nursing.
Quote:
Women are not powerless, and they are not only the victims of gender roles but also, partly, their enforcers...

Who says the women of today are either powerless or victims of their gender roles? Are you caught in a 1950's time warp? Today, Western women have career options hardly limited to their former traditional professions, like teaching or nursing, and they have great flexibility in how they want to interpret and define their own gender roles for themselves. And the same is true for men, they are no longer bound by restrictive gender roles either, and they can define masculinity for themselves--they are not powerless victims of their gender roles either.
Quote:
I wouldn't know where to start if the enemy was "patriarchy" ...

Who says it's a patriarchal system that's keeping men out of teaching? It simply explains why teaching wound up being a predominantly female field in the first place--females had few other career options, other doors were shut to them. Although, to the extent that teaching is still viewed as low status work, and less "worthy" for a man to be doing, the attitudes and vestiges of a patriarchal system might still be operating.

It's mainly how men view teaching that keeps them out of it, and if men start viewing teaching with more respect, and as a profession worthy of prestige and status, and they begin demanding higher salaries for teachers, to reflect that, perhaps more of their sons will want to be teachers when they grow up.

Your thinking generally tends to focus on blaming women, rather than encouraging or exhorting men to assume the responsibility for correcting those issues of concern to them, or changing their own attitudes about what "men's work" should be, so that it includes something like teaching elementary school.




Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 30 Jan, 2015 07:43 pm
@firefly,
You don't really understand my perspective. Can I ask you something weird? Imagine moi as a woman. My name is Olivia, and i am a feminist.

Like all feminists, like all woman, i have my own views about what feminism 'is', or should be, or should be focusing upon. Your views and mine might differ, but our general goal is the same: gender equality. As two people with similar goals but different views about how to get there, we can either cooperate for our shared goal, or fight for the real soul of feminism till Her Kingdom come.

You seem to want a serious discussion and I want one too. I like you and your extremely articulate style, even though i sometime disagree with the ideas this brilliant style conveys.

My style unfortunately is far worse, usually brief because my time is short, and as a non-native speaker, I frequently produce garbled, ambiguous posts conveying opinions that may sound pretty 'exotic' to you. Which is probably why you don't understand me very well. So I get that, as Jo would say.

The important point that i was trying to make -- about the HOW TO of feminism -- is that us women CANNOT change grown up men very well... Believe me, I have tried and it didn't work! We can fight them, eg legally in divorce and discrimination cases. But to convince them to change, if they don't adhere to feminism, is next to impossible. But we can change ourselves, because we women also help enforce gender roles -- just like everybody does, including kids themselves -- eg through education, and therefore we can raise our kids better. And we can also talk to men in a collaborative manner and indeed collaborate with them on many projects.

That's is literally all I was saying. Do you agree?
 

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