0
   

What Darwin discovered

 
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2014 07:30 pm
@parados,
he doesn't really get it. Hes obsessed with the molecule itself.
DNA Thumbs drive
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2014 07:55 pm
@farmerman,
DNA is everything, including the universe....................
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2014 05:02 am
@DNA Thumbs drive,
You've actually said something that is partly intelligent.
WHile DNA is certainly not "everything", it IS a sheet of instructions, the nature of which acts as the record keeping of life's ascent on our planet.
Should DNA or some other means of compiling nucleotides be found to evidence life ALL OVER the Galaxy and beyond, then, and only then, would I listen to the various arguments ( including ID).
We have evidence of several nucleotides in space (we can read spectrographic information from stars and planets).
That would merely address a "common life source" problem for interstellar life but would NOT negate anything that Darwin provided us. It would merely impose a whole new field of possibilities.

In another 250000 years, when were scooting about the Galaxy and seeing whether life is ubiquitous or, if its there, is it common sourced? Or is it defined by several different possible starting points and modes?.
Ive got no dogs in anyones fight because itd be exciting knowledge no matter what the findings.

I just bet that, even in that dim future Darwin will still be a Galactic mind that we revere .



0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2014 02:35 pm
@DNA Thumbs drive,
One storage device doesn't do much good with over 7 billion people on this planet. You don't seem to understand which quantity I was referring to.
DNA Thumbs drive
 
  0  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2014 06:50 am
@parados,
But 7 billion people could easily have a 1mg DNA drive, that would all hold the contents of the library of congress. Thus all people could have all recordable knowledge.....!
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 09:58 am
Now that they've all been catalogued and transcribed onto disc, the Cmbridge University "Darwin Project" has been able to put together a neat and easily navigable web site for the thousands of pieces of correspondence to and from Charles Darwin

THE DARWIN PROJECT
DNA Thumbs drive
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 02:27 pm
@farmerman,
Is it called, the diaries of a birdwatcher?
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 06:33 pm
@DNA Thumbs drive,
Its a history thing. You wouldn't understand.
DNA Thumbs drive
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 06:39 pm
@farmerman,
Whaaa, this is the tree of life, which is an I THINK, not an I KNOW, of a fool.

Looks very scientific huh?

Perhaps for a kid in preschool

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/04/17/DarwinSketch.article.jpg
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 06:44 pm
@DNA Thumbs drive,
as I said, you wouldn't understand, so you ridicule. Ats ok , some learn in different ways
DNA Thumbs drive
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 06:49 pm
@farmerman,
Read and learn.........

Problem 1: No Viable Mechanism to Generate a Primordial Soup.

According to conventional thinking among origin-of-life theorists, life arose via unguided chemical reactions on the early Earth some 3 to 4 billion years ago. Most theorists believe that there were many steps involved in the origin of life, but the very first step would have involved the production of a primordial soup -- a water-based sea of simple organic molecules -- out of which life arose. While the existence of this "soup" has been accepted as unquestioned fact for decades, this first step in most origin-of-life theories faces numerous scientific difficulties.

In 1953, a graduate student at the University of Chicago named Stanley Miller, along with his faculty advisor Harold Urey, performed experiments hoping to produce the building blocks of life under natural conditions on the early Earth.1 These "Miller-Urey experiments" intended to simulate lightning striking the gasses in the early Earth's atmosphere. After running the experiments and letting the chemical products sit for a period of time, Miller discovered that amino acids -- the building blocks of proteins -- had been produced.

For decades, these experiments have been hailed as a demonstration that the "building blocks" of life could have arisen under natural, realistic Earthlike conditions,2 corroborating the primordial soup hypothesis. However, it has also been known for decades that the Earth's early atmosphere was fundamentally different from the gasses used by Miller and Urey.

The atmosphere used in the Miller-Urey experiments was primarily composed of reducing gasses like methane, ammonia, and high levels of hydrogen. Geochemists now believe that the atmosphere of the early Earth did not contain appreciable amounts of these components. UC Santa Cruz origin-of-life theorist David Deamer explains in the journal Microbiology & Molecular Biology Reviews:

This optimistic picture began to change in the late 1970s, when it became increasingly clear that the early atmosphere was probably volcanic in origin and composition, composed largely of carbon dioxide and nitrogen rather than the mixture of reducing gases assumed by the Miller-Urey model. Carbon dioxide does not support the rich array of synthetic pathways leading to possible monomers...3
Likewise, an article in the journal Science stated: "Miller and Urey relied on a 'reducing' atmosphere, a condition in which molecules are fat with hydrogen atoms. As Miller showed later, he could not make organics in an 'oxidizing' atmosphere."4 The article put it bluntly: "the early atmosphere looked nothing like the Miller-Urey situation."5 Consistent with this, geological studies have not uncovered evidence that a primordial soup once existed.6

There are good reasons why the Earth's early atmosphere did not contain high concentrations of methane, ammonia, or other reducing gasses. The Earth's early atmosphere is thought to have been produced by outgassing from volcanoes, and the composition of those volcanic gasses is related to the chemical properties of the Earth's inner mantle. Geochemical studies have found that the chemical properties of the Earth's mantle would have been the same in the past as they are today.7 But today, volcanic gasses do not contain methane or ammonia, and are not reducing.

A paper in Earth and Planetary Science Letters found that the chemical properties of the Earth's interior have been essentially constant over Earth's history, leading to the conclusion that "Life may have found its origins in other environments or by other mechanisms."8 So strong is the evidence against pre-biotic synthesis of life's building blocks that in 1990 the Space Studies Board of the National Research Council recommended that origin-of-life investigators undertake a "reexamination of biological monomer synthesis under primitive Earthlike environments, as revealed in current models of the early Earth."9

Because of these difficulties, some leading theorists have abandoned the Miller-Urey experiment and the "primordial soup" theory. In 2010, University College London biochemist Nick Lane stated that the primordial soup theory "doesn't hold water" and is "past its expiration date."10 Instead, he proposes that life arose in undersea hydrothermal vents. But both the hydrothermal vent and primordial soup hypotheses face another major problem.

Problem 2: Forming Polymers Requires Dehydration Synthesis

Assume for a moment that there was some way to produce simple organic molecules on the early Earth. Perhaps they did form a "primordial soup," or perhaps these molecules arose near some hydrothermal vent. Either way, origin-of-life theorists must then explain how amino acids or other key organic molecules linked up to form long chains (polymers) like proteins (or RNA).

Chemically speaking, however, the last place you'd want to link amino acids into chains would be a vast water-based environment like the "primordial soup" or underwater near a hydrothermal vent. As the National Academy of Sciences acknowledges, "Two amino acids do not spontaneously join in water. Rather, the opposite reaction is thermodynamically favored."11 In other words, water breaks down protein chains into amino acids (or other constituents), making it very difficult to produce proteins (or other polymers) in the primordial soup.

Problem 3: RNA World Hypothesis Lacks Confirming Evidence

Let's assume, again, that a primordial sea filled with life's building blocks did exist on the early Earth, and somehow it formed proteins and other complex organic molecules. Origin-of-life theorists believe that the next step in the origin of life is that -- entirely by chance -- more and more complex molecules formed until some began to self-replicate. From there, they believe Darwinian natural selection took over, favoring those molecules which were better able to make copies. Eventually, they assume, it became inevitable that these molecules would evolve complex machinery -- like that used in today's genetic code -- to survive and reproduce.

Have modern theorists explained how this crucial bridge from inert nonliving chemicals to self-replicating molecular systems took place? Not at all. In fact, even Stanley Miller readily admitted the difficulty of explaining this in Discover Magazine:

Even Miller throws up his hands at certain aspects of it. The first step, making the monomers, that's easy. We understand it pretty well. But then you have to make the first self-replicating polymers. That's very easy, he says, the sarcasm fairly dripping. Just like it's easy to make money in the stock market -- all you have to do is buy low and sell high. He laughs. Nobody knows how it's done.12
The most prominent hypothesis for the origin of the first life is called the "RNA world." In living cells, genetic information is carried by DNA, and most cellular functions are performed by proteins. However, RNA is capable of both carrying genetic information and catalyzing some biochemical reactions. As a result, some theorists postulate the first life might have used RNA alone to fulfill all these functions.

But there are many problems with this hypothesis.

For one, the first RNA molecules would have to arise by unguided, non-biological chemical processes. But RNA is not known to assemble without the help of a skilled laboratory chemist intelligently guiding the process. New York University chemist Robert Shapiro critiqued the efforts of those who tried to make RNA in the lab, stating: "The flaw is in the logic -- that this experimental control by researchers in a modern laboratory could have been available on the early Earth."13

Second, while RNA has been shown to perform many roles in the cell, there is no evidence that it could perform all the necessary cellular functions currently carried out by proteins.14

Third, the RNA world hypothesis can't explain the origin of genetic information.

RNA world advocates suggest that if the first self-replicating life was based upon RNA, it would have required a molecule between 200 and 300 nucleotides in length.15 However, there are no known chemical or physical laws that dictate the order of those nucleotides.16 To explain the ordering of nucleotides in the first self-replicating RNA molecule, materialists must rely on sheer chance. But the odds of specifying, say, 250 nucleotides in an RNA molecule by chance is about 1 in 10150 -- below the "universal probability bound," a term characterizing events whose occurrence is at least remotely possible within the history of the universe.17 Shapiro puts the problem this way:

The sudden appearance of a large self-copying molecule such as RNA was exceedingly improbable. ... [The probability] is so vanishingly small that its happening even once anywhere in the visible universe would count as a piece of exceptional good luck.18
Fourth -- and most fundamentally -- the RNA world hypothesis can't explain the origin of the genetic code itself. In order to evolve into the DNA/protein-based life that exists today, the RNA world would need to evolve the ability to convert genetic information into proteins. However, this process of transcription and translation requires a large suite of proteins and molecular machines -- which themselves are encoded by genetic information.

All of this poses a chicken-and-egg problem, where essential enzymes and molecular machines are needed to perform the very task that constructs them.

Problem 4: Unguided Chemical Processes Cannot Explain the Origin of the Genetic Code.
To appreciate this problem, consider the origin of the first DVD and DVD player. DVDs are rich in information, but without the machinery of a DVD player to read the disk, process its information, and convert it into a picture and sound, the disk would be useless. But what if the instructions for building the first DVD player were only found encoded on a DVD? You could never play the DVD to learn how to build a DVD player. So how did the first disk and DVD player system arise? The answer is obvious: a goal-directed process -- intelligent design -- is required to produce both the player and the disk.

In living cells, information-carrying molecules (such as DNA or RNA) are like the DVD, and the cellular machinery that reads that information and converts it into proteins is like the DVD player. As in the DVD analogy, genetic information can never be converted into proteins without the proper machinery. Yet in cells, the machines required for processing the genetic information in RNA or DNA are encoded by those same genetic molecules -- they perform and direct the very task that builds them.

This system cannot exist unless both the genetic information and transcription/translation machinery are present at the same time, and unless both speak the same language. Not long after the workings of the genetic code were first uncovered, biologist Frank Salisbury explained the problem in a paper in American Biology Teacher:

It's nice to talk about replicating DNA molecules arising in a soupy sea, but in modern cells this replication requires the presence of suitable enzymes. ... [T]he link between DNA and the enzyme is a highly complex one, involving RNA and an enzyme for its synthesis on a DNA template; ribosomes; enzymes to activate the amino acids; and transfer-RNA molecules. ... How, in the absence of the final enzyme, could selection act upon DNA and all the mechanisms for replicating it? It's as though everything must happen at once: the entire system must come into being as one unit, or it is worthless. There may well be ways out of this dilemma, but I don't see them at the moment.19
The same problem confronts modern RNA world researchers, and it remains unsolved. As two theorists observed in a 2004 article in Cell Biology International:
The nucleotide sequence is also meaningless without a conceptual translative scheme and physical "hardware" capabilities. Ribosomes, tRNAs, aminoacyl tRNA synthetases, and amino acids are all hardware components of the Shannon message "receiver." But the instructions for this machinery is itself coded in DNA and executed by protein "workers" produced by that machinery. Without the machinery and protein workers, the message cannot be received and understood. And without genetic instruction, the machinery cannot be assembled.20


Problem 5: No Workable Model for the Origin of Life

Despite decades of work, origin-of-life theorists are at a loss to explain how this system arose. In 2007, Harvard chemist George Whitesides was given the Priestley Medal, the highest award of the American Chemical Society. During his acceptance speech, he offered this stark analysis, reprinted in the respected journal Chemical and Engineering News:

The Origin of Life. This problem is one of the big ones in science. It begins to place life, and us, in the universe. Most chemists believe, as do I, that life emerged spontaneously from mixtures of molecules in the prebiotic Earth. How? I have no idea.21
Many other authors have made similar comments. Massimo Pigliucci states: "t has to be true that we really don't have a clue how life originated on Earth by natural means."22 Or as science writer Gregg Easterbrook wrote in Wired, "What creates life out of the inanimate compounds that make up living things? No one knows. How were the first organisms assembled? Nature hasn't given us the slightest hint. If anything, the mystery has deepened over time."23

Likewise, the aforementioned article in Cell Biology International concludes: "New approaches to investigating the origin of the genetic code are required. The constraints of historical science are such that the origin of life may never be understood."24 That is, they may never be understood unless scientists are willing to consider goal-directed scientific explanations like intelligent design.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 07:03 pm
@DNA Thumbs drive,
As was said to you OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
"The primordial soup" is a metaphor. There are several hypotheses by which life arose and several of these are actually being studied in a interdisciplinary fshion.
Why couldn't life have arisen several times?
Why must RNA be the first replicating molecule?

Multipe hypotheses , seems that only you IDers and Creationists are so fond of pinning natural options down to one possible bauplan.

DNA Thumbs drive
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 07:09 pm
@farmerman,
Wrong again, experiments were done by fools. https://www.google.com/#q=primordial+soup+experiment

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Miller-Urey_experiment-en.svg/2000px-Miller-Urey_experiment-en.svg.png

Next
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 07:27 pm
@DNA Thumbs drive,
youre about 50 years behind thumbsy.
The only thing wrong with M&U was that they screwed up the paleo atmosphere (It was reducing and methanogenic)
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 07:32 pm
@DNA Thumbs drive,
as I said before, the history of science is not something to which you pay attention .

Even Newton considered himself an alchemist.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 07:44 pm
@farmerman,
even using primitive reaction vessels, and PAPER CHROMATOGRPHY analyses of their " smudgy R values" (developed with ninhydrine/tryptophane solution), they still were able to document the formation of aseptic acid, l glycine, a and b alanine, amino butyric acids and several other longer chained amino compounds that they hdnt the means to analyze by paper chromatography.
Creationists argue that the experiment was actually measuring "Incoming amides from outer space"
O, even if that were so, where all those aminos come from ??

Creationists are always running back up their own assholes for saftey
DNA Thumbs drive
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 09:23 pm
@farmerman,
No experiment has created any form of life, from nothing. Life can only exist, by the replication of DNA, which has hundreds of thousands to billions of lines of chemical code. The mathematical probability of such code forming by chance, is just impossible....... The odds are seriously too high to even calculate, but I am sure that you can use your Boolean algebra to demonstrate differently.

PS. You just went from the warm pond being a metaphor, to being taught by me, that dufus professors have tried and failed at this. I am glad to be of learning service to you.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 11:43 pm
@DNA Thumbs drive,
did you know that its a physical impossibility for bumblebees to fly?
It is also impossible for life to exist in temperatures above the boiling point pf water, or in a pH of less than 4?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 11:54 pm
@DNA Thumbs drive,
Quote:
PS. You just went from the warm pond being a metaphor, to being taught by me, that dufus professors have tried and failed at this. I am glad to be of learning service to you.
You are fucked in the ehad. What doofus professors? The Miller Urey experiment was in the early 1950s and is taught as an example of being ahead of the facts when an experiment is done.
You give yourself waay too much credit. You seem to grab onto scattered "factoids" . I suggest you read some newer works on abiogenesis, youll see that weve come several tech generations in lab instruments alone (Miller and Urey used PAPER CHROMATOGRAPHY-( I don't think youre even aware of the meaning of that) Yet they were able to calculate R/R0 values of specific orgnic solvents produced in the retort.

The only one whose learnt anything new today is you.
But as Ive alwys said to my classes, I don't "larn ya" you must discover for yourself. If a blind argument is working for you, perhaps I can recommend some texts that you would find valuable.


BTW-YOU were the one who was twerking with repeating the "warm little pond" and I and several others told you the exact page in Darwins Conclusionary chapter that he brings this metaphor up and why he states that that subject ("abiogenesis or creation") is beyond his present work and that it would be a subject of others in the future.
Also, it ws you who said that hes read the "Origin..." and I called you aliar because you did not recognize the context with which that line was developed by DArwin.
Yet you still repeat it over and over again even though it makes you sound really dim s you repeat it as a mantra.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2014 11:54 pm
@DNA Thumbs drive,
Quote:
PS. You just went from the warm pond being a metaphor, to being taught by me, that dufus professors have tried and failed at this. I am glad to be of learning service to you.
You are fucked in the ehad. What doofus professors? The Miller Urey experiment was in the early 1950s and is taught as an example of being ahead of the facts when an experiment is done.
You give yourself waay too much credit. You seem to grab onto scattered "factoids" . I suggest you read some newer works on abiogenesis, youll see that weve come several tech generations in lab instruments alone (Miller and Urey used PAPER CHROMATOGRAPHY-( I don't think youre even aware of the meaning of that) Yet they were able to calculate R/R0 values of specific orgnic solvents produced in the retort.

The only one whose learnt anything new today is you.
But as Ive alwys said to my classes, I don't "larn ya" you must discover for yourself. If a blind argument is working for you, perhaps I can recommend some texts that you would find valuable.


BTW-YOU were the one who was twerking with repeating the "warm little pond" and I and several others told you the exact page in Darwins Conclusionary chapter that he brings this metaphor up and why he states that that subject ("abiogenesis or creation") is beyond his present work and that it would be a subject of others in the future.
Also, it ws you who said that hes read the "Origin..." and I called you aliar because you did not recognize the context with which that line was developed by DArwin.
Yet you still repeat it over and over again even though it makes you sound really dim s you repeat it as a mantra.
 

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