The Trinity (a discussion)

Good theologians have been providing cannon fodder for the politicians for thousands of years. Why not just examine the bible with a clear mind? How difficult is the question. "To whom did Jesus pray?"

Thorough discussion here, with plenty of trinitarian input.
http://able2know.org/topic/51117-1

Ooh, Wikipedia, it must be true.

A theologian is one who studies the theories concerning god(s). Learned, yes; knowledgeable, better than most; understanding, not really; but he knows a mystery when he studies one. He can talk theories - conflicting, parallel, overlapping, opposing, - he can site his contemporaries as well as the great historical theologians. But he will not know the answer to the mystery of the Trinity. That, he'll probably admit, is beyond his understanding. One point they most all have in common, is knowing of the Trinity takes faith.


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
10:30 I and the Father are one.

So Jesus, when he was near death, did he really say "Oh me! Oh my! Why have I forsaken myself?"
The trinity lie would be a laughing stock were it not for the fact that it dishonors our creator.

I posted the following Jesus quotes in another A2K thread somewhere but they need another airing here to show that Jesus was NOT God-

"I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28 )

"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)

"Only God knows when Judgment Day will be, I don't know myself" (Mark 13:32)

"I say nothing of my own accord, I only say what my father tells me to say.." (John 12:49)

"My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me" (John 7:17)

“Father...I am coming to you now" (John 17:13)

"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." (Luke 23:46)

God himself said - "This is my beloved son, listen to him" (Matt 17:5)

John the Baptist said- "The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands" (John 3:34-35)

And of course Jesus regularly prayed to God, yet if he was God why would he pray to himself?

No.

Jesus prayed to, (communicate with God), and obeyed his Father.

It may be, in the desert, Satan tried to appeal to the human side of Jesus, hoping to find weakness.

I don't have all the answers, I may have none, what I do have is faith.

If you can't wrap your head around all this, maybe, (get ready for this), maybe it's because it's a mystery.

maybe it's because it's a mystery?

My sunday school days I heard those words far too many times.

At least Wikipedia tries to give a rather neutral answer which certainly was not the case amongst the answers here.

Please, tell me where in that Wikkipedia article does it show my answers to be inconsistent with the article. I would expect a good source of reference to be neutral; but both the faithful, and atheists alike, are accepting of their own bias. Do you expect it to be any other way?

I did not refere to your personal answer, but that in general often - too often - answers are just ...... with no knowledge behind it.
At least there is the history of the trinity in the article is a bit better than to call it ....... even if you are a 100% atheist.

Hope you do not mind my entering the discussion....but how can one have faith in what one does not understand, that is have faith in a mystery?

Isn't it so much easier to just have faith in God, and drop the trinity, the mystery, and believe in God, for those that do?

Faith in God, you say? You understand God? Because it is a mystery, it would take faith to believe - just as if it were something inexplicable - like love.

To believe in something so very inexplicable requires far more faith than I am willing to give. If there are no answers to the most important questions, how can you consider your faith to be well founded?

Not a few Bible scholars have seen the parallel between Abraham's preparation to sacrifice Isaac and Jehovah's willingness to submit his only begotten son. Surely, we can sympathize with the emotional agony Abraham must have experienced as he climbed the mountain. Do any of us doubt that, as a loving father, he would gladly have sacrificed himself? Yet, he was willing to follow through so that God's will might be done.

Now do you see the distinct nature of father and son?

To those without faith, no answers are acceptable; to those with faith, no answers are necessary.

Is logic also not necessary? It is a distinct lack of logic in todays religious hoo har which has left any faith I once had at threadbare.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church, for centuries, logically insisted the world was flat and was the center of the universe, along with what is now, many other laughable ideas. Science usually leads the way, e.g. a fetus has a heartbeat months before being born. Only lately (relatively) did science learn how a bumble bee flies, as they logically proved the size of their wings, and the fastest rate of 'flapping', could not give enough lift for flight. (While this still is true, their double wings don't flap, but move in a more circular fashion causing vortexes which give them lift, somewhat like a helicopter.)
But I digress. My point being, logic is based upon assumptions which may be inaccurate, and imprecise definitions. Faith, on the other hand, often flies in the face of logic. Many a spouse "logically" believed their other half, were faithful and truly loved them - right up until being served with divorce papers. Both faith and logic have their shortcomings; still, we use them to overcome our own mysteries.

Think "First Alien Contact" mate..
Jesus said- "I know where I came from and where I am going, but you have no idea where I come from or where I am going....you are of this world, I am not of this world...I'll tell you things hidden since the creation of the world" (John 8:14/ 8:23, Matt 13:35)

So putting "faith" to one side for the moment, isn't it simply illogical not to listen to an alien visitor?
Instead, the primitive priests and Romans were so scared that they killed him.
Same cold reception was given to Klaatu in The Day the Earth stood Still-

You are way over thinking it. God did not have to do any of that. You are looking at it that way thru the view point of Satan. God is god the father, created all living things. Knew that a creature would rebel. Gave every creature the ability to reject him, as if he did not and there were no suffering. We would be robots. He could have done it another pagan way like all the other pagan gods. But then its not perfected. So Lucifer rebelled and took angels with him. Mocked human beings, tempted humans with forenication to fall. Or every servile temptation. We chose to fall giving us a will. Then God brought forth a family to use a human to destroy Satan. God did not impregnate itself since Mary is not the holy spirit. End of discussion. The world is so convulted that people can't even be further decieved. So they are basically asking Satan to provide them with answers he can't possibly give. To the point where everyone will have to answer to God. And explain what they consciensiously have done. Since many are deceiving and are being deceived. By themselves, and others individuals. Satan never knew he had grace with god if he obeyed human beings. He thought he was condemned both ways, and had no faith. After he was shown to be beneath god, then once more for humans where he decided to be a pest to us. Even Satan himself is smart enough not to touch this. And knows that God is pissed off at us since some even try to create a worm hole universe where they are trying to escape their mistakes. Most of us will be going to purgatory to relearn how to respect each other.

Lucifer? Purgatory? Where are these to be found in the Bible?

BTW, you did realize Smiley was not serious, right?