45
   

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

 
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 12:01 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
So, if the police feel threatened, by unarmed civilians, and fear they might suffer severe harm, you want them to shoot and kill also, and not be held accountable for their actions?


This news story is for you Firefly............

Footnote if someone try to beat a police officer to death after getting him on the ground I would expect the same ending as happen below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Davenport police officer was attacked and a man shot to death by a Davenport police officerJuly 31, 2009 on the Centennial Bridge. Clif Anderson, the Davenport police officer who shot Steven Mallory on the Centennial Bridge was reasonable and justified in his actions, Scott County Attorney Mike Walton said this morning. (Kevin E. Schmidt/Quad-City Times)

The Davenport police officer who shot a man on the Centennial Bridge last week was "reasonable and justified" in his actions during a seconds-long life-or-death struggle, Scott County Attorney Mike Walton announced Thursday.

Steven Mallory, 39, was seriously injuring officer Clif Anderson and would have continued to do so if Anderson did not shoot him twice with his Glock .40-caliber handgun, Walton said.

The first shot to Mallory's chest hit his lungs and heart and is believed to be the shot that killed him, Walton said. The second entered his torso near his spleen and went through his body.

Mallory had bitten an eyebrow off Anderson, punched him, choked him and slammed his head against the pavement. The fight ended after Jim Weakley, an East Moline detective who happened to be passing by on the bridge, stopped and attempted to get Mallory off Anderson. Weakley couldn't, but Anderson then was able to remove his gun from his holster and shoot Mallory, officials said. Anderson will require plastic surgery.

"I'd go so far as to say it was heroic," Walton said, adding that Anderson saved injury and possibly the lives of others by stopping Mallory.

Mallory had a lengthy violent history and was a suspect in an unprovoked assault 15 minutes earlier. That assault knocked out Rylan Bebermeyer, a volunteer at the Café on Vine, a free meal site in Davenport that Mallory visited.

It was unfortunate that the incident resulted in death, Walton said, but there was no other reasonable course of action. The investigation into the incident is mostly complete, he said. Toxicology reports are not yet back on Mallory.

A written report is expected in several weeks, Walton said.

"I think it's fair to say officer Anderson thought he was going to die," during the assault, Walton said.

Walton released the full video of the incident, as well as photos of Anderson's injuries. The video, taken by Anderson's squad car camera, shows Anderson approaching Mallory, who was identified as the suspect in the Café on Vine assault by a witness who followed Mallory to the bridge. Anderson orders Mallory to his knees several times. When Mallory fails to comply, Anderson deploys his Taser.

The Taser did not work. Investigators believe it failed because only one of the weapon's two prongs hit Mallory. Mallory then charges at Anderson and takes him to the ground in a narrow space between Anderson's police cruiser and the railing dividing traffic from the bridge's sidewalk.

At that point, the struggle moves off screen, and Weakley arrives on the scene.

Anderson tells Mallory that if he does not get off, he is going to shoot. Shots are fired. Mallory comes back into view of the camera and collapses on the ground.

Anderson informs dispatchers of shots fired. He then kneels beside Mallory with Weakley standing nearby. Fellow officers, who were already en route to assist Anderson with the stop, arrive on the scene. They move Anderson away from Mallory.

When asked if he is OK, a bleeding Anderson replies, "I don't know."

Anderson remains on leave. He will be required to undergo treatment to make sure he is mentally and physically ready to return to work, officials said.

"He seems to be doing well in light of the circumstances," Davenport Police Chief Frank Donchez said. "He's looking forward to getting back to work."

An internal police department investigation will evaluate whether the department's policies and procedures were followed, Donchez said.

TagsCentennial Bridge, Steven Mallory, Clif Anderson, Mike Walton, Scott County Attorney
View (0
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  0  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 12:57 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Let see being follow on the public streets by someone you do not know is ground for killing or trying to kill another person however having your head pounded into the sidewalk is not ground for doing so.

The non-fictional murder of Martin by Zimmerman is more compelling than the fictional Martin trying to kill Zimmerman you've presented.

Zimmerman's own words "these guys always get away" speak to the frame of mind he had. It's reasonable to conclude that Zimmerman's statement supports the idea he intended to apprehend Martin, else he would "get away." Capture/apprehension is more than simply following, it's a physical confrontation. Moreover, in terms of self-defense, a person need not have already been assaulted physically to use force, they simply need to feel sufficiently threatened. In Martin's case, a total stranger following them and then attempting to detain them (without any sort of law enforcement uniform or ID) would reasonably establish Martin's position to defend himself if the stranger (Zimmerman) attempted to detain him in any way.

Child abductors, rapists, and pedophiles are a real threat. Zimmerman's actions would rightfully alarm and make people feel threatened.

BillRM wrote:

Love the strange and I mean very very strange attempts to justify Trayvon attempted to murder Zimmerman and Zimmerman lost of the right to stop Trayvon from doing so.

So in your mind, Trayvon is in control and beating Zimmerman's head into the ground (the only way cuts can get on the head, right?) while yelling "help" repeatedly. Further, you believe he attempted to "kill" Zimmerman, while yelling "help." That, or you think Zimmerman's voice changed, and he was yelling help, and the fact that all the screaming stops when the shot is fired, is just a coincidence.

Very strange indeed. It's stupid to try and make the case that Trayvon would have the advantage, and instead of escaping from the stranger (what he was trying to do originally), he'd try to physically maul a grown man to death.

Absurd mental gymnastics.
R
T
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 01:07 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
In Martin's case, a total stranger following them and then attempting to detain them (without any sort of law enforcement uniform or ID) would reasonably establish Martin's position to defend himself if the stranger (Zimmerman) attempted to detain him in any way.

Particularly if he saw that Zimmerman had a gun inside his belt.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 01:20 pm
@Joe Nation,
DAVID wrote:
I believe that the heart of the question in the Zimmy case is:
WHO grabbed whom first??? Neither party had a right to get physical.
(We do not address considerations of citizen's arrest,
because no one has alleged that this was involved in this case.)
Joe Nation wrote:
Yes. That is correct.
And I am willing to bet you a bowl of chicken soup at the deli of your choice
I 'm more comfortable in better restaurants.
In the 1970s, I was seeeing a strikingly beautiful actress named Ivy,
who insisted on eating in Delicatessens. I got kinda tired of it.




Joe Nation wrote:
that, in the end, it will be shown that Zimmerman
(please, could we stop with the "Zimmy" bullshit, it's beneath you.)
NO, no; u got it rong: Zimmy was beneath Mr. T !





Joe Nation wrote:
acted aggressively, physically accosted Martin, that Martin resisted,
momentarily got the upper hand and Zimmerman shot him.

Joe("They always get away.")Nation
IF it gets to a jury
and if the jury finds THAT scenario to be factually accurate,
THEN Zimmy will have legal problems.


Will u likewise concede that he is (I 'm too lazy to write out his name)
rightfully entitled be perfectly free, if he kept his hands OFF of Mr. T
and he did not threaten him ??

By the way, how is your new job getting along ?





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 01:25 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
Actually, if all Zimmerman did was put his hand on Martin and tell him to stay put, because the police were on the way, I think Martin would have been justifed in slugging him--he didn't know who the hell Zimmerman was, or what he was up to, and he knew he hadn't done anything wrong.
Agreed; that is a critical consideration.
My argument up to this point
has been based on the concept that Mr. Z kept his hands off him.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 01:28 pm
@firefly,

Quote:
In Martin's case, a total stranger following them and then attempting to detain them (without any sort of law enforcement uniform or ID) would reasonably establish Martin's position to defend himself if the stranger (Zimmerman) attempted to detain him in any way.
firefly wrote:
Particularly if he saw that Zimmerman had a gun inside his belt.
An ARMED society is a POLITE society.





David
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 01:35 pm
@firefly,
Sorry dear I and almost no one else no matter how you try to sell it would attack with deadly intend someone for following them and if I was followed and had some concerns over it I would had used my cell phone to call the police.

I would not even dream of attacking someone who is trying to make a citizen arrest no matter how piss off I might be instead of waiting for the police to show up to press charges for that person actions as my life would not be at risk at that time.

In no way or in no matter in any case would I attempt to kill that person as Trayvon did.

But being knock down and having someone trying their very very best to knock my brains out would as in the case of Zimmerman and the police officer in the news story would result in my killing that person in self defense.

So spin queen of spin queen an attack of the kind that was launch on Zimmerman is a felony and give him every right of self defense by placing his life at risk.

0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 02:00 pm
Quote:
Will u likewise concede that he is (I 'm too lazy to write out his name)
rightfully entitled be perfectly free, if he kept his hands OFF of Mr. T
and he did not threaten him ??

By the way, how is your new job getting along ?


Très certainement
Of course, that IS the weak part of your version of events, Zimmerman's version, that he was on his way back to his truck when attacked. Huh? On what planet is a kid barely old enough to vote going to single-handedly jump a stranger, an armed stranger, and to what end? Did Mr. Martin think he could get away with just smacking the stranger around a bit before going home?
Come on.

Okay. The bet is on. My treat or your treat. No delis (Really? Not even Ben's over in the Fashion District?? Very excellent sandwiches as big as your head. It would be fun.) What are we betting again? Chicken something? Can't be soup, okay, a half roast chicken and a bottle of good white wine. Or you pick.

Joe(you're going to be buying. Smile )Nation

PS: Job going very well. We are moving the air.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 02:46 pm
@Joe Nation,
DAVID wrote:
Will u likewise concede that he is (I 'm too lazy to write out his name)
rightfully entitled be perfectly free, if he kept his hands OFF of Mr. T
and he did not threaten him ??

By the way, how is your new job getting along ?
Joe Nation wrote:
Très certainement
Of course, that IS the weak part of your version of events, Zimmerman's version, that he was on his way back to his truck when attacked. Huh? On what planet is a kid barely old enough to vote going to single-handedly jump a stranger, an armed stranger, and to what end? Did Mr. Martin think he could get away with just smacking the stranger around a bit before going home?
Come on.
Well, the concept is that he got mad
at being confronted and he avenged himself upon Mr. Z.
I am aware of no evidence that Mr. T was aware
that he was armed with a gun. No one has said
that he BRANDISHED it, so far as I know.
In some jurisdictions, including NY,
that is against the law (but, for what its worth,
I believe that if he HAD BRANDISHED it,
then Mr. T 'd remain intact now).




Joe Nation wrote:
Okay. The bet is on. My treat or your treat. No delis (Really? Not even Ben's over in the Fashion District?? Very excellent sandwiches as big as your head. It would be fun.) What are we betting again? Chicken something? Can't be soup, okay, a half roast chicken and a bottle of good white wine. Or you pick.
OK, Joe. I'm ez to get along with; sounds good.
I prefer red wine, over white.
I think that goes better with the dark meat of chicken.

I expect to be in Reno, in July (in case the matter
comes to fruition around that time; we 'll put aside some time).




Joe Nation wrote:
Joe(you're going to be buying. Smile )Nation
I'm skeptical that it will get as far as a jury,
but we 'll see. I know enuf not to predict the outcome of litigation.

Joe Nation wrote:
PS: Job going very well. We are moving the air.
"Onward & Upward!" Such is the NY motto.





David
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 03:01 pm
Reno in July. Now I know you are crazy.
I guess you never step outside....blast furnace temps....have fun.

BTW, this case will not be over by July, so no rush.

Red wine is always preferable, I got started on the chicken soup because of what you ordered at the 2nd Ave. Deli.

Joe(yes. I remember everything about every moment of my life)Nation
Mr. Green
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 03:24 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I'm skeptical that it will get as far as a jury,
but we 'll see. I know enuf not to predict the outcome of litigation.


The question I find interesting is if Sharpton and his supporters/fellow travels are going to used a court ruling that they do not care for as an excused to start a good old fashion race riot or not in the year 2012 or not.

No justice no peace................and blood flowing on the streets and the smell of burning buildings in the wind.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 03:26 pm
@BillRM,
Bill, you and David better grab your guns and get out there. No time like the present to be able to shoot people and claim self defense. (As long as they actually riot, which is unlikely.)
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 05:31 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Reno in July. Now I know you are crazy.
I guess you never step outside....blast furnace temps....have fun.
That 's right; stay in, until sundown.
I 've been to Las Vegas a lot, but this is my first trip to Reno.



Joe Nation wrote:
BTW, this case will not be over by July, so no rush.
OK. I was considering the possibility of its being dismissed on a motion.
If the case is overturned on appeal,
we can meet again at another restaurant, for restitution.



Joe Nation wrote:
Red wine is always preferable, I got started on the chicken soup because of what you ordered at the 2nd Ave. Deli.

Joe(yes. I remember everything about every moment of my life)Nation
Mr. Green
That 's better than me, Joe; I don 't.






David
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2012 05:27 am
http://www.publiusforum.com/images/DogObamaAte.jpg
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2012 05:42 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
What u wrote implies that it is a criminal act for Zimmy to get out of his car

No it doesn't, and no it isn't. Killing people, however, is a criminal act unless you have a good defense. Mr. Zimmerman's defense is that in killing Mr. Martin, he was standing his ground. This defense, however, falls apart because Zimmerman wasn't standing his ground. He was following Mr. Martin, in his car or otherwise, intruding on Mr. Martin's ground rather than standing his own. His stand-your-ground defense being shattered, Mr. Zimmerman needs to find another defense, or else be found guilty of a criminal act for killing Mr. Martin. That's what getting out of his car implies for Zimmerman.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2012 06:43 am
@Thomas,
Sorry this is a clear case of self defense and you seems to feel that Zimmerman should had known that Trayvon would try to kill him before he was attacked by Taryvon.

He knew or should had known before following Trayvon or getting out of his car that this teenager would try to be a would be murderer is your and other people position.

Most low level criminals that Zimmerman seems to view Trayvon as likely to be, that are looking to rip off home owners are not violence and until Trayvon launch his attack how would Zimmerman know that was about to occur!!!!!

Sorry this is a clear case of lethal intend attack launch by Trayvon that was rightfully met by lethal force by Zimmerman in order to save his life.

Shame on Zimmerman for just not dying instead of fighting for his life after being attack.

To sum up the only one guilty for Trayvon death is Trayvon with perhaps some blame going to his parents for raising a teenager that would attempt to murder a man on the public streets.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2012 07:50 am
@BillRM,
Quote:

May 9, 2012
Trayvon Martin’s father recalls moments with his son, ‘my best friend’
By Jeff Weiner — The Orlando Sentinel

ORLANDO, Fla. (MCT) — Tracy Martin drives a truck for a living, but his son preferred something with two wheels.

“Trayvon loved riding on the motorcycle with me,” Martin recalls. He had been teaching his son to ride, but while returning home to Miami Gardens, Trayvon asked to test his highway skills for the first time on Florida’s Turnpike.

“He just kept telling me, ‘I can drive, I can drive,’ ” Martin said.

Though they weren’t far from home, Martin had trepidations. But he decided Trayvon was ready. “I relaxed and let him do his thing. He surprised me.”

It was a proud moment for Martin, Trayvon taking another step toward adulthood. Three weeks later, his son was dead. Martin now clings to those memories.

“It’s moments like that that the public doesn’t know,” said Martin, 45. “Those were the kinds of things that I look back on and I can smile.”

Martin spoke with the Orlando Sentinel last week from Birmingham, Ala., where he; Trayvon’s mother, Sybrina Fulton, 46; and family attorney Benjamin Crump attended a march in the slain teen’s honor.

The couple, who divorced in 1999, are now facing a media firestorm together while also coping with every parent’s worst nightmare: the loss of a child.

Though they split when he was just 4 years old, Trayvon’s parents have been inseparable since his death, making virtually all of their public and media appearances together.

Martin said they remained friends after the divorce, recognizing their son needed both parents. But Trayvon’s shooting death in late February at the hands of an armed neighborhood watch volunteer “has brought us closer,” he said.

More than ever, “we need to lean on each other. We know we need each other to get us through this.”

Before all of the media and public attention, the death of Trayvon went largely unnoticed locally. Then, Tracy Martin — a Miami native who has been a driver for Sysco Corp. for more than a decade — reached out to his sister-in-law, who is a lawyer.

She got in touch with Crump, a Tallahassee attorney who now represents the Martin family. Crump said that, at his first meeting with Tracy Martin, the teen’s father was “a defeated man.”

“It was really the hopelessness in his eyes,” Crump said.

The overwhelming support at rallies and protests has given Martin and Fulton hope, Crump said.

Martin still breaks down describing the day he found out about his son’s death, but Crump said the despondency of that first meeting has only returned once.

“The only real time that I saw that look of hopelessness on Tracy was at (shooter George Zimmerman’s) bond hearing” last month, Crump said.

As Zimmerman, in a shocking development, took the witness stand and delivered an apology to Trayvon’s parents, Martin was distraught, Crump recalled. Martin and Fulton left the hearing together without commenting on Zimmerman’s remarks.

Several family friends who have spoken publicly since the shooting detailed Martin’s relationship with his son and his presence in Trayvon’s life — taking him fishing and attending football games and practices.

“Just seeing your child grow up in general is very important,” Martin said. “That was real important to me.”

Martin often tells this story: In 2004, Trayvon rescued him from a house fire after he fell asleep while food was cooking on the stove. Without Trayvon’s help, he says, he would have died. But the close bond with Trayvon that others have described began long before that, he said.

“Trayvon has been, so to speak, my best friend since the time he could walk,” Martin said.

Alicia Stanley, whom Martin married in 2005, said it was always apparent to her that Martin and Trayvon “were the best of friends.”

“He is a very good father,” Stanley told the Sentinel. She said she and Martin split up just weeks before Trayvon’s death.

Stanley said Trayvon was like a son to her, too. Martin, she said, is “a good person; he’s very kindhearted. That’s the way his son was, too.”

Martin is “trying to get justice for our son,” Stanley said. “He’s not going to rest until he gets it.”

Everything changed for Tracy Martin on Feb. 26 in Sanford. He and Trayvon were staying with his girlfriend, Brandy Green, in the Retreat at Twin Lakes gated community.

When Tracy Martin and Green returned home that night, he said, Trayvon wasn’t there.

The elder Martin said he called his son’s cellphone, but it went to voicemail. He remembered Trayvon had made plans to see a movie with a family member and thought, “Maybe they are in the movie, and they turned their phones off.”

He went to sleep that night, he said, trusting his son would return. The next morning, as he grew more worried, Martin called law enforcement and asked to file a missing-persons report.

Still, “I just knew that Trayvon’s going to be coming home with an excuse,” he said. “It was unusual for my kid not to come home, not to be answering his phone and not to call me.”

A Sanford police detective arrived. Tracy Martin showed him a photo of his son, and the detective retrieved a folder from an unmarked car.

They went inside Green’s home, and the detective revealed the folder’s contents, Martin said.

“They showed me a picture, and it was my son, laying on the ground dead.”

Copyright © 2012 Morris Daily Herald. All rights reserved.
http://www.morrisdailyherald.com/2012/05/09/trayvon-martins-father-recalls-moments-with-his-son-my-best-friend/av52944/
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2012 08:01 am
@gungasnake,
every once in a while you amaze me and post something worthwhile, congratulations
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2012 09:41 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Sorry this is a clear case of self defense and you seems to feel that Zimmerman should had known that Trayvon would try to kill him before he was attacked by Taryvon.

Since Mr. Martin and you evidently were on a first-name basis, you and him must have known each other fairly well personally. I didn't know him, by contrast. Obviously, then, I must yield to your superior knowledge about your acquaintance, Mr. Martin.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 May, 2012 10:49 am
@Thomas,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
What u wrote implies that it is a criminal act for Zimmy to get out of his car
Thomas wrote:
No it doesn't, and no it isn't. Killing people, however, is a criminal act unless you have a good defense.
A good JUSTIFICATION; there shud be no need of any further "DEFENSE", after the predator has been successfully killed.
Police shud NOT harass victims who have defeated criminal predators by KILLING them.
All the rest of the decent people have reason for gratitude to the successful killer.
He made the country safer for the rest of us; no joke.
I 'd shake his hand and maybe jam a $1OO bill into it !





Thomas wrote:
Mr. Zimmerman's defense is that in killing Mr. Martin, he was standing his ground.
NO. If he 'd done the same thing BEFORE that statute was enacted,
i.e., killed the predator while he was slamming his brain
against the street, he 'd be innocently exercising his right to self defense, the same as if a pit bull were tearing him up.






Thomas wrote:
This defense, however, falls apart because Zimmerman wasn't standing his ground.
He was lying supine upon it,
as a predator was endeavoring to effect an encephalectomy upon him, against his will.





Thomas wrote:
He was following Mr. Martin, in his car or otherwise,
intruding on Mr. Martin's ground rather than standing his own.
Is there ANYTHING immoral, illegal, dishonorable, or unethical in doing so, Tom ?
This case is fun.



Thomas wrote:
His stand-your-ground defense being shattered, Mr. Zimmerman needs to find another defense, or else be found guilty of a criminal act for killing Mr. Martin. That's what getting out of his car implies for Zimmerman.
No, Tom. The same as any American, he was perfectly free to exit his car
and to speak
to Mr. T.

At NO time was Zimmy legally confined to his car [That cud not POSSIBLY happen
without judicial process being served upon him.]
nor was cloture, nor censorship imposed upon him with NO process of law.

Freedom of movement thru the streets
and freedom of speech are among Zimmy 's FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS herein.
Those rights do not just vanish, like evaporated water.





David
 

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