Land of opportunity

I think one of the best opportunities we give is in the area of education. No one is really 'tracked' like they are elsewhere. That is, yes, there's a lot of standardized testing, but that doesn't force you into trade school or college or really anywhere. You got a 1600 on your SATs and want to go to trade school? Go for it! You got a 400 on your SATs and want to go to college? If you can find a place that'll admit you, knock yourself out!

Here in Mass., we have the MCAS. In New York, they have Regents courses (and exams). Doing poorly on either might be problematic for you in High School, but that doesn't preclude you from going to college. We definitely don't cut people out of future opportunities because of youthful missteps on tests.

jespah, Your views about American opportunity is right on target. I'm a very good example of how a poor boy with bad grades in school did pretty well in the accounting profession. I barely made it out of high school, but after struggling for six years after I spent four years in the US Air Force, I graduated from a California state university with a degree in accounting. I went to work for Florsheim Shoe Company immediately after graduation, and after three and a half years was promoted to audit manger. After my stint with Florsheim for seven years, we returned to California, and I worked the majority of my work life in management positions. I retired at 63, the first in our family. I was never that good in school, but realize how lucky I have been in my life. I have traveled to seventy five countries, and see first hand how many with better education struggle just to put food on the table and keep shelter over their heads. We are not wealthy, but we have no need for more money, and I can still travel two or three times to foreign lands. I am indeed fortunate for having been born in the US. c.i.

Initially I went to the community college for I guess a semester at night but then got married, moved to Tucson, AZ, had a baby and put my husband through UofA. Finally in 1984 at the urging of my daughter I went back to college (that is what boomers do in their 40s). I obtained an AA in World Lit and American History. 3.8 GPA. I have not finished collage as yet but the thought is still out there. I did get a paralegal cert from U of Maryland in 1993. But in 1995 I retired from the feds with intentions to go to school but some life problems interfered with that.

My greatest successes were working with the public at the SSA, doing a good job for them, being the best public servant I could be. In addition I was very successful in labor relations and am very proud of that.

Now I am embarking on a new career, that of artist. And I have to give credit were credit is due. Between Abuzz and A2k I have been encouraged and received mentoring from JLNobody, shepaints, and Cobalt. This endeavor may not be a huge material or public success but it is so far my most personal success.

Good on ya, Joanne! You should 'talk' to Mom, too ~ she trained herself in painting and some of my most prized posessions are her paintings.

I dunno...
Well, I'd like to take this point to disagree.

I DON'T think America is a land of opportunity where how hard you work equates to where you go socially.

I mean, cases of that do occur, but I'm talking about generally, I believe it comes down to who you know and what kind of education you received.

Now, a lot of you are saying that everyone gets the same education but that's not true.

Why else would we have rankings for schools? Because they're all the same and of the same caliber? No way. It's because schools are different and some are better than others.

I am privileged and was able to attend a good school. Because of that, I'm able to currently attend a good university.

But what about the kids who weren't able to get the same education? Whose schools were so useless and underfunded and poor that they were better off dropping out and trying to make a living another way?

But then, because they lack the education, they're stuck working dead-end jobs.

How often do college drop-outs become high society? I'm sure it's happened somewhere along the line, but how often?

Not often.

So if our society has an unequal education system, then who do we look to about the ever-increasing gap between the rich and the poor?

Why are the poor in our country worse off than the poor in Sweden, although we're above Sweden on the GDP scale?

I'd love to hear some answers; I've been debating this topic with my mom for the past week.

innocence, All one needs to do is to look at the overall productive capacity of the US vs other developed countries, our standard of living, and how college grads earn much more than high school grads over our lifetimes.

There are always exceptions to the general rule about most economic and social rankings, but no matter where I stood on the economic ladder, my wish would always be a citizen of the US where many poor people live better than middle-class in many countries in this world.

USA is called land of opportunity because most people from less immigrated there taking advantage that you can find many jobs and make easy money there. But for sure USA of today have lost their old glamour.

I believe, poverty in america is when someone earns less then 20K a year ? Right?
Or somewhere in that ball park.

twenty thousand U.S dollars , in about 70% of other countries, is more then the educated population in those countries earn in a year.

Even with 20 thousand a year, a person can still drive a brand new car, and live in a home or apt with running water, heat, air conditioning, and have their choice of foods to eat. All with out having to really work the land in order to MAKE these things happen.

They have access to medical care 24-7.
( everyone in america does... simply because the Emergency rooms turn NO-ONE away... )

With 20 thousand a year, a person can also save for retirement, buy a home, AND have luxuries.. meager to other americans , those luxuries may seem..

but in the big scope of things, yes. America is the land of " opportunity"

The opportunity to be in debt until you die, for the things you supposedly own...


(edited for spelling)

Cicerone imposter:

"innocence, All one needs to do is to look at the overall productive capacity of the US vs other developed countries, our standard of living, and how college grads earn much more than high school grads over our lifetimes.

There are always exceptions to the general rule about most economic and social rankings, but no matter where I stood on the economic ladder, my wish would always be a citizen of the US where many poor people live better than middle-class in many countries in this world."

ACTUALLY, our "overall productive capacity" is only so high because our rich are ridiculously rich. Our privileged are extremely privileges. And our standard of living? Well, I'd say that of the privileged [privileged being upper and middle class] is high [even indulgent]. And yes, college grads typically each more than high school grads.

BUT, the idea that our poor are better than many middle-class in other countries- it's a flawed idea. You're comparing our poor in an industrialized country to those of third-world countries where the government is typically instable and large number of the people are starving. The rich in those country are typically less rich than the US' rich too. It's like comparing a rich man's telephone and a poor man's telephone. Yes, they're both telephones, but the rich man's going to be considerably better.

BUT, if you compare our poor to the poor of other industrialized countries, their poor are typically better off. And I'm fairly sure, actually, that almost all other industrialized countries' poor are better off than ours.


Now, some of you are talking about POVERTY. I was originally talking about the poor, which I believe is identical to shewolfnm's definition of "poverty."

Well, in response to the idea posed that 20,000 is enough, I'd like to once again disagree. I mean, yes, they're be able to live in a home/ apt with running water, heat, air conditioning, and choice of fooods... but for how long? And if this person has a family?

And they DO have access to medical care, we have to think of medical bills. What happens when people are unable to pay their debts/ bills?

And what about money that goes to things like buying school supplies and clothes?

20,000 a year. That's about 54.79 dollars to spend a day. In the course of a day, in order to maintain the "not so bad, though in debt" lifestyle mentioned, the person would use that amount to pay for electricity, water, gas (bill and for the car), mortgage, the phone, food for the day, small things like toothpaste and toothbrush and clothes and plates and cups and furniture [not that you buy a new one everyday, but every day you use that stuff, you're kinda use a fraction of what you paid for it]. That's not to mention the expenses incurred from maintaining a car, having a TV [if they even have that luxury], paying for over-the-counter and prescription medicines, maintaining the house [plumbing, heating, air-conditioning, etc], perhaps owning a computer [and with that, a printer], etc etc.


So how about this. Let's do an experiment. Anyone who sees this- who's willing to spend STRICTLY 54.79 on himself/ herself [not even providing for kids] per day for a year? Or 20,000 total for a year?

[Btw, I'm assuming it's 20,000 AFTER taxes. What if it's 20,000 before??]


So, let's take this scenario one step further. Say you're living off this 20,000 [somehow] with kids. How much more will that cost you?? You can't afford expensive housing so you have to live in a poor area.

That poor area doesn't have the extra money to spend improving schools and the government isn't giving any money to the school because it's not improving itself.

So, your kids will not get the good education they should have as much of a right to as everyone else.

And if they lack that good education, they probably won't be able to get into a good college. And their chances of paying for college?

Well... loans and grants, probably. Scholarships are a possibility, but if your child doesn't have the grades to compare with other children whose parents were able to live in a better area or find a cheap tutor? Or what if the school could not provide good-enough teachers and your child has to suffer their imcompetence?

It's a pretty ugly downward spiral.



I will agree, though, that America was AT ONE POINT a land of opportunity for IMMIGRANTS [not for Blacks]. That much is true. I just think that's different now.

innocence wrote:
BUT, the idea that our poor are better than many middle-class in other countries- it's a flawed idea. You're comparing our poor in an industrialized country to those of third-world countries where the government is typically instable and large number of the people are starving. The rich in those country are typically less rich than the US' rich too. It's like comparing a rich man's telephone and a poor man's telephone. Yes, they're both telephones, but the rich man's going to be considerably better.

BUT, if you compare our poor to the poor of other industrialized countries, their poor are typically better off. And I'm fairly sure, actually, that almost all other industrialized countries' poor are better off than ours.


I get first hand information from world travel; not from books or news articles. Here are some examples:

1) I know a doctor and his wife that lives in Dar es Salaam in Tanzania. They are upper class in Tanzania, but he had to go to India to get diagnosed for his cancer.
2) On my first trip to Russia on a river cruise, most on board our boat that served us were doctors, lawyers, and college professors, because they can earn more serving tourists than they can in their professional careers. The bar tender is a lawyer, and our waitress is a doctor.
3) On my recent Balkan's cruise, our city guide in Bucharest is a dentist, because he can earn more as a tour guide than he can in dentistry.
4) Any American that needs medical care can get it at their local community hospital? It is not based on ability to pay.
5) Most, if not the majority of Americans, can get food through the federal food stamp program and/or charities that provides food - and shelter.
6) All American children are provided free education.
7) Hard work and a good education will almost guarantee a comfortable living in the US.

I get first hand information from world travel; not from books or news articles. Here are some examples:

1) I know a doctor and his wife that lives in Dar es Salaam in Tanzania. They are upper class in Tanzania, but he had to go to India to get diagnosed for his cancer.
2) On my first trip to Russia on a river cruise, most on board our boat that served us were doctors, lawyers, and college professors, because they can earn more serving tourists than they can in their professional careers. The bar tender is a lawyer, and our waitress is a doctor.
3) On my recent Balkan's cruise, our city guide in Bucharest is a dentist, because he can earn more as a tour guide than he can in dentistry.
4) Any American that needs medical care can get it at their local community hospital? It is not based on ability to pay.
5) Most, if not the majority of Americans, can get food through the federal food stamp program and/or charities that provides food - and shelter.
6) All American children are provided free education.
7) Hard work and a good education will almost guarantee a comfortable living in the US.


1) Is Tanzania more industrialized than India?
2) Right. So their wealthy are not as wealthy as ours; I never contested. I guess you're saying that their poor must live in poorer conditions than ours, correct?

Ok. I'll give you that one since you saw that their poor are worse off than our poor first-hand.

But I think Russia might be one of the few exceptions. if you look at how the poor in Sweden, Canada, the Netherlands, Singapore, and several other industrialized nations are living, I believe it's comparably better than how our poor are living.

My point is that our poor are not being taken care of as they should be, despite the fact that we are the richest country in the world.

3) Bucharest is in Romania, right? Last I checked, Romania wasn't an industrialized country in the sense that I'm talking about. Plus, a fair bit of Romania is very poor. Once again, it's like comparing apples and oranges. If we're going to compare countries, we should compare some that are more like, such as comparing the UK, France, Canada, Sweden, the Netherlands, Singapore, Japan, etc to the US.

4) I know medical care isn't based on ability to pay; however, upon receiving treatment, I believe you get bills. You won't be turned away from the doctor; instead, you'll be wallowing in debt if you don't have insurance. Also, lack of money can limit the quality of treatment you can get.

5) If most can get food through shelters and food stamps and welfare, why is it still such a problem? Plus, what's the quality in the food given?

I went to do some relief work in New Orleans this past winter break, and I was given food from the Red Cross a couple of times; it's packed with carbs but not often with nutrition. Now, I'm not trying to sound ingrateful or picky; I'm just saying that YES you get food but it's not always going to be good for you.

Plus, my grandmother's given food by the government. It's not healthy or balanced in any sense of the word.

Which can lead to malnutrition...

6) Yes. We all are provided free education. But not free EQUAL education, the key word being equal. Someone who graduates from the top public high school in the nation will have a very different education from someone who graduates from the lowest public high school in the nation.

7) will ALMOST guarantee. also, how much of that "good education" is guaranteed?? American education in general isn't that good compared to the rest of the world... But even NOT internationally and just nationally, how good is your "good" education?

I had the privilege of moving to a better school system for high school and middle. I can honestly say that THAT'S why I'm able to attend a good college.

But if I hadn't moved?

Most likely attending a state school. Luckily, my parents placed a lot of emphasis on education anyway, so I probably would still have been decently well-off.

But if a simple move in ONE STATE for middle schools makes such a difference [I'd guage about 20,000+ per year wage difference], how much so a different, more drastic move?

You talk about free EQUAL education as if that ever existed any place on this planet or country. So, you have a solution? I wouldn't argue about good education in this country because I agree with your opinion. Compared to other industrialized countries, we're way down in math and science graduates - the future economy.

No: food with carb is better than no food. If I were in their situation, I'd accept those carb food any day of the week if there's nothing else available.

Tanzania is a very poor country, but I've seen much poverty in India too. We visited a middle class family in India; their living standards were better than many in this country, but the contrasts are more evident between the haves and have nots.

With food stamps, people are able to select their own foods. There are also many charities in the US that provides food for the poor. The selections may not be the healthiest, but that's also true of what most children eat at school for lunch.

"You talk about free EQUAL education as if that ever existed any place on this planet or country. So, you have a solution?"- I don't think it ever existed in this country, actually. But just because it hasn't doesn't mean it shouldn't.

I propose the goverment even out the money based on how much a school receives to spend on different things. I mean, it's a little ridiculous that some schools don't even have enough for proper textbooks while otheer schools get new editions every 3 years.

"No: food with carb is better than no food. If I were in their situation, I'd accept those carb food any day of the week if there's nothing else available."- I never said it wasn't. What I AM saying is that it's not a healthy and proper lifestyle.

"Tanzania is a very poor country, but I've seen much poverty in India too. We visited a middle class family in India; their living standards were better than many in this country, but the contrasts are more evident between the haves and have nots." I would agree with this... so where's the argument here? Is there one?

"With food stamps, people are able to select their own foods. There are also many charities in the US that provides food for the poor. The selections may not be the healthiest, but that's also true of what most children eat at school for lunch." But many children who buy the school lunches have the financial option of buying food to bring from home. Also, you can choose food but what you can get is still limited [like meat every so often [rarely] and rice and bread and things like that].

My point is that it's not really how hard you work in this country. It's really who you know and what you know. You could work really hard in a really bad school, but your education still wouldn't compare to the average kid's education from a privileged school.

Also, I don't understand why there's the ridiculous gap between the poor and the rich in this country. I mean, we could afford to do more for the poor; why don't we??

And to clarify, it's not that I don't love America. I do. I just think that the America I have felt and known and loved should be available for all other Americans. They should likewise get the same education and same opportunities.

Well, I've lived in this country going on 70 years now, and I have traveled this world extensively. I've also loved this country, because it afforded me the education, and it has allowed us to make a pretty good living with a standard of living that exceeds more than 80 percent of how the people of this world lives.

Our family came from a very modest background - and even that is an exaggeration. Up through our teen years, we lived in hostels where our home was a school room separated by army blankeets; that's what we called home.

My older brother became an attorney, and later became an administrative judge in California. My younger brother is an opthalmologist with an MBA, and he is now a legislator in California. Our sister is an RN. Over 98 percent of our children are doing fine; most are in the professions and include doctors, lawyers, PhDs, Masters, principal, and others now working for the state of California.

Hard work and study usually rewards people in this country. There are always exceptions.

I agree that more should be done to help the poor people in this country. I have always supported the idea of a universal health care system for our country, the richest country that doesn't provide it. I also think minimum wage needs to be increased sufficiently for families to survive on one job and one income. Gov Ahnold is trying to increase the minimum wage by $1 in the next two years, but I'm not sure he's going to win that battle with the legislators.

I think it's shameful that CEO's now earn thousands of times more than the workers at the bottom of the ladder of their company earning minimum wage. I think it's shameful that places like WalMart pays its employees minimum wage and denys them any kind of fringe benefits. I think it's shameful that vets are homeless and must live out on the streets with physical and mental injuries as the result of their service to our country.

There are many things to be shameful for, but I love this country that still provides the opportunities for those that work towards realistic goals for success.

your right
I think that innocence is right, the children have to suffer for the class of their parents it it just like what it was like in the 1900's. the children had to work and the education was just for the RICH people just like it is now. I live in a town where our CSAP scores are so low that we got put on watch by the administrators and even the advanced classes are way easier than normal classes in a different city It does all matter about your location and class or rank in society. the US is not, never was, and never will be an equal society there for it can not be the land of opportunity!

I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.

hi everyone i need a good answer to why is america called the land of opportunity?

From Wikipedia:

For most of its history, especially from the mid-19th to early 20th centuries, the United States has been known as the "land of opportunity," and in this sense, it prided and promoted itself on providing individuals with the opportunity to escape from the contexts of their class and family background.[39] Examples of this social mobility include:

Occupational—children could easily choose careers which were not based upon their parents' choices.[40]
Physical—that geographical location was not seen as static, and citizens often relocated freely over long distances without barrier.[41]
Status—As in most countries, family standing and riches were often a means to remain in a higher social circle. America was notably unusual due to an accepted wisdom that anyone—from impoverished immigrants upwards—who worked hard, could aspire to similar standing, regardless of circumstances of birth. This aspiration is commonly called living the American dream. Birth circumstances generally were not taken as a social barrier to the upper echelons or to high political status in American culture. This stood in contrast to other countries where many higher offices were socially determined, and usually hard to enter without being born into the suitable social group.[42]

However, social mobility in the US is lower than in a number of European Union countries if defined in terms of income movements. American men born into the lowest income quintile are much more likely to stay there compared to similar men in the Nordic countries or the United Kingdom.[43] Many economists, such as Harvard economist N. Gregory Mankiw, however, state that the discrepancy has little to do with class rigidity; rather, it is a reflection of income disparity: "Moving up and down a short ladder is a lot easier than moving up and down a tall one."[44]