62
   

Can you look at this map and say Israel does not systemically appropriate land?

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 30 Jul, 2016 11:20 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
Great article. Definitely shows that most of oralloy's "facts" aren't facts at all,

I know how much liberals hate facts and reality, but linking to an article that is filled with outright lies does nothing to invalidate the truth.


MontereyJack wrote:
but only opinions, each just one opinion among many.

Liberals hate facts so much that they have a variety of coping mechanisms to help them. One such coping mechanism is to pretend that facts are opinions.
0 Replies
 
momoends
 
  4  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2016 12:40 am
@djjd62,
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/state-of-israel-proclaimed
you can´t
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2016 02:05 am
@cicerone imposter,

It is always horrible to see Self-Hating Jews lying about Israel.

/sigh
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2016 02:07 am
@momoends,
momoends wrote:
you can´t

Sure you can. All that is needed is to take into account the fact that Israel has traded Land For Peace with Egypt, and has repeatedly offered to trade Land For Peace with the Palestinians.

Facts are an outstanding counter to anti-Semitism.
momoends
 
  3  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2016 03:56 am
@oralloy,
so if its an offering you have the right to say no, true?
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2016 04:35 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

Great article. Definitely shows that most of oralloy's "facts" aren't facts at all, but only opinions, each just one opinion among many.
ar


Like this one, I've posted it elsewhere, but what the heck.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/13614957_1088467667905203_8653664126999606754_n.jpg?oh=d1b57c5488bad248d4b131b1ecc2b6dc&oe=581A79F0
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2016 07:05 am
@momoends,
momoends wrote:
so if its an offering you have the right to say no, true?

If it had merely been a matter of the Palestinians saying "we don't like that offer, how about this counteroffer instead" that would have been fine.

But it was not OK for the Palestinians to respond to Israel's peace offers with large massacres of innocent civilians.

And it is not OK for people to now lie and deny that Israel ever made the offers.

And it is not OK for people to treat Israel as if they were an intransigent party who had never made those peace offers.

And ultimately, if the Palestinians refuse every possible offer of peace, then Israel is not obligated to give up any more land. Their only obligation to give up land is as part of a peace deal, and if a peace deal is not possible, that obligation goes away.

And that is where we are now. Everyone has refused to make peace with Israel or to treat them fairly, and now they get to keep all the land for themselves.
momoends
 
  4  
Reply Sun 31 Jul, 2016 12:27 pm
@oralloy,
so they say no and Israel accepted their answer? Really, so Israeli occupation settlements in Palestinian territory is they way Israel shows respect to their neighbors rights and borders?
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Mon 1 Aug, 2016 06:48 am
@ossobucotemp,
http://www.nkusa.org/

http://www.truetorahjews.org/

Jewish Anti-Zionism
Main article: Jewish Anti-Zionism

Opposition to a Jewish state has changed over time and has taken on a diverse spectrum of religious, ethical and political positions.

There is a long tradition of Jewish anti-Zionism that has opposed the Zionist project from its origins. The Bundists, the Autonomists, Reform Judaism and the Agude regarded both the rationale and territorial ambitions of Zionism as flawed. Orthodox Judaism, which grounds civic responsibilities and patriotic feelings in religion, was strongly opposed to Zionism because, though the two shared the same values, Zionism espoused nationalism in secular fashion, and used "Zion", "Jerusalem," "Land of Israel", "redemption" and "ingathering of exiles" as literal rather than sacred terms, endeavouring to achieve them in this world.[1] Orthodox Jews also opposed the creation of a Jewish state prior to the appearance of the messiah, as contradicting divine will.[2] By contrast, reform Jews rejected Judaism as a national or ethnic identity, and renounced any messianic expectations of the advent of a Jewish state.[3]

Other objections relate to the maintenance of a Jewish majority within the present state of Israel.

Post-Zionism a related term has been criticized as being equivalent to anti-Zionism.[4]

The legitimacy of anti-Zionist views has been disputed to the present day, including the more recent and disputed relationship between anti-Zionism and antisemitism.[5] Other views regarding the various forms of anti-Zionism have also been discussed and debated.[6][7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.Mf34fdf26fcca9d9868dc9e740774a40bo0%26pid%3D15.1&f=1

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.Mdc3468f7ae3b40fcfc61ff3017adf253H0%26pid%3D15.1&f=1

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.M27f613ae68a98f72b8f171337a38aa0bo0%26pid%3D15.1&f=1
0 Replies
 
Below viewing threshold (view)
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2016 06:23 am
We’re American Jewish Historians. This Is Why We’ve Left Zionism Behind

Source: Haaretz, by Hasia Diner and Marjorie N. Feld, Aug 01, 2016

Our connections to Israel flourished, faltered and finally ended even though we grew up, live and work in the heart of the American Jewish community.

Hasia Diner: The Israel I once loved was a naïve delusion

When I was asked to run as a delegate on the progressive Hatikva platform to the 2010 World Zionist Congress, I encountered my personal rubicon, the line I could not cross. I was required to sign the "Jerusalem Program." This statement of principles asked me to affirm that I believed in “the centrality of the State of Israel and Jerusalem as capital” for the Jewish people. It encouraged “Aliyah to Israel,” that is, the classic negation of the diaspora and as such the ending of Jewish life outside a homeland in Israel.

The “Jerusalem Program” also asked me to declare that I wanted to see the “strengthening Israel as a Jewish, Zionist and democratic state.” As to democratic, I had no problem, but the singular insistence on Israel as a Jewish and Zionist state made me realize that, at least in light of this document, I could not call myself a Zionist, any longer. Does Jewish constitute a race or ethnicity? Does a Jewish state mean a racial state?

The death of vast numbers of Jewish communities as a result of Zionist activity has impoverished the Jewish people, robbing us of these many cultures that have fallen into the maw of Israeli homogenization. The ideal of a religiously neutral state worked amazingly well for the millions of Jews who came to America.

The socialist Zionism of the Habonim youth movement was central to my early years, providing my base during the 1970s when the Jewish settlement of the Occupied Territories began. I need not belabor the point that from that date on, the Palestinian land that has been expropriated for Jews has grown by leaps and bounds and that the tactics used by the State of Israel to suppress the Palestinians have grown harsher and harsher.

Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.734602
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2016 07:54 am
@bobsal u1553115,
A reply (as well an 'opinion' as the above) is in today's Haaretz:
American Jewish Historians Shouldn't Succumb to Crude Clichés About Zionism
Quote:
We don't need Diner and Feld to be Zionists, nor to 'Stand with Israel.' We need them to bring the same humanity and discernment they show writing the history of Jews in other times and places to their analysis of the situation in Israel.
[...]
It matters that Diner and Feld are historians of rare and exquisite talent. Diner, the more senior of the pair, has in her work brought back to life people that history seemingly forgot. Through her, we heard the voices of Jewish women in Colonial America, and push-cart peddlers in the Lower East Side, and teachers seeking in mid-century America to make sense for their students of the horrors of the Holocaust. Feld wrote an award-winning life of Lillian Wald, the nurse who started the Henry Street Settlement house that brought care to thousands of poor Russian immigrants to New York, an account illuminated by Feld’s own decency.

Although they do not claim it for themselves, Diner and Feld have earned, with their work, a sort of moral authority. At least, they hold such authority for me.
[...]
Still, I disagree with much of their essay. Diner writes that the “death of vast numbers of Jewish communities as a result of Zionist activity has impoverished the Jewish people, robbing us of these many cultures that have fallen into the maw of Israeli homogenization.” I think I know what Diner means. I spent much of 1983 wandering the remains of Jewish communities in North Africa as a Watson Fellow, and in Egypt, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia and Morocco, one could see how the massive exodus of Jews from these countries to Israel in the decades after the State was established had left communities with long centuries of rich tradition essentially abandoned.

But it is a mistake to see this migration, willingly and often joyfully undertaken by Jews of North Africa, coldly “as a result of Zionist activity,” and not as choice taken by individuals, families and communities. What’s more, the often fractious multiculturalism of today’s Israel belies the idea that we are victims here of an “Israeli homogenization,” much less one that has a gaping and voracious “maw.”
[...]
In the end, what discouraged me the most about Diner and Feld’s essay is this. We need them. Not to be Zionists, if they choose not to be. Not to “Stand with Israel,” if they choose not to. Not to sign the “Jerusalem Platform” or any other bit of agitprop. We need them to bring to their analysis of the situation here, the same humanity and discernment that is on display when they write the history of Jews in other times and places.

We need moral authorities like Diner and Feld to be on the side of empathy, on the side that recognizes that solutions to complicated human problems come when people on all sides manage to look through the simplistic formulations and see the humanity in the others. Feld writes how she long saw the moment in 1947 when the UN declared that the Jewish people would have our own state as an act of moral vindication for a people nearly destroyed by Nazi gas chambers.  She describes how, in time, she “interpreted it anew” as “the great catastrophe, for Palestinians.”  The key, though, is to learn to see that electric and fraught moment as both things at once, as it most certainly was. 

This matters because a solution to the problems we face here will arrive not when one side finally admits that their hopes, dreams and aspirations were illegitimate and wrong. A solution will arrive when both sides realize that the hopes, dreams and aspirations of the other side, like their own, have value, beauty and legitimacy. Diner and Feld have demonstrated in their brilliant and humane history books about American Jews that they know this to be true. I only wish they would see that what is true in New York and Philadelphia is true, too, in Jerusalem and Ramallah.

0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2016 09:27 am
I think that Zionism has removed a lot of Jewish culture that had enriched the culture of cities and nations.

At the same time not as thoroughly or as quickly as antisemitism has.

I have photos I received from friend that represent his family in Warsaw before the Holocaust. I believe Polish culture has lost some of its richness from both Zionism and antisemitism.

A large part of western power's support for Israel had to do with their own antisemitism - they wanted Jewish refugees anywhere but in their nations or behind the Iron Curtain.
0 Replies
 
momoends
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2016 10:51 pm
@oralloy,
WTF????!!!!! you have just say Palestinians have no rights???!!! no sense talking to you anymore... you don´t even respect or even know HR... pray you won´t ever have yours endangered... Karma is a bitch
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2016 08:40 am
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/stickers_en/GUS_Sticker09e.png

Why did Netanyahu appoint a settler as top NY diplomat?

Once again, the Israeli right wing is correct in claiming that the left has taken control of the media. In late May, Israeli media outlets disseminated the following left-wing statement: “The Arab Peace Initiative contains positive elements that could help revive constructive negotiations with the Palestinians. … We are willing to negotiate with the Arab states revisions to that initiative so that it reflects the dramatic changes in our region since 2002, but maintains the agreed goal of two states for two peoples.” For those who have forgotten, the peace initiative is based on the establishment of a Palestinian state within the 1967 border lines (with possible land swaps) and does not mention the term “Jewish state.”

The above remarks were spoken by none other than Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at the ceremony anointing Avigdor Liberman as defense minister on May 31. The leader of Yisrael Beitenu, a party not known for its leftist leanings, gave the prime minister’s declaration of diplomacy his full-throated support. “I want to remind people that for many years … I spoke more than once about recognizing, that same solution of two states for two peoples,” Liberman told listeners. He added, “ President al-Sisi's speech was very important and has created a genuine opportunity. We must try to pick up the gauntlet.”

Naturally, Israel’s official representatives are required to present this position at home and abroad. It therefore stands to reason that a government that advocates a two-state solution would not entrust an important diplomatic mission to a citizen who declares his out-and-out opposition to said solution. Sending a former senior official of the Judea and Samaria Settlement Council to encourage US Jews to support the establishment of a Palestinian state in Judea and Samaria is almost like appointing anti-Zionist, Israeli Arab Knesset member Haneen Zoabi of the Joint List as a Jewish Agency representative to encourage diaspora Jewry to move to Israel. Once again, however, Israeli fact trumps fiction.

On Aug. 1, Dani Dayan, a veteran West Bank settler, assumed his position as Israeli consul general in New York. He was awarded the coveted position after the Brazilian government refused to accept his appointment as Israel’s ambassador because he is a resident of an occupied territory. (Of note, in 2006 the George W. Bush administration confirmed the nomination of Sali Meridor, a resident of the Kfar Adumim settlement, as Israel’s ambassador to Washington.) Unlike with ambassadors, the appointment of a consul does not require the approval of the host government.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2016/08/dani-dayan-consul-general-new-york-netanyahu-two-state.html#ixzz4GdYL5psX
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 08:35 am
@momoends,
momoends wrote:
WTF????!!!!! you have just say Palestinians have no rights???!!!

Well, they don't. Got something against facts?


momoends wrote:
no sense talking to you anymore... you don´t even respect or even know HR...

I know a lot about human rights, and respect them a lot.

I also have a lot of knowledge and respect regarding facts and reality.


momoends wrote:
pray you won´t ever have yours endangered... Karma is a bitch

Karma says that it's time for the Palestinians to get what they deserve.

Yes, Karma is indeed a bitch. And rightly so. It is wonderful when scumbags get what is coming to them.
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 09:02 am
@momoends,
Quote:
you don´t even respect or even know HR


Ignore him.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 10:03 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:
Ignore him.

When I post facts, liberals run in terror.

(It's not me so much. It's the facts.)
MontereyJack
 
  4  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 08:18 pm
@oralloy,
No. It's you. And we don't run so much as snicker at you and your delusions of adequacy Your "facts" are the biased opinions of one side, and one side only, of the parties in the dispute. Since you don't look at all the evidence but only a skewed selection from special pleaders, no one takes you seriously.
cicerone imposter
 
  4  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2016 08:26 pm
@MontereyJack,
On the illegal settlements on Palestinian lands.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/settlements.html

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/alj-setvi.html
0 Replies
 
 

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