When has religion irked you personally and why?

maliagar wrote:

Wow!

And I thought I was already popular around here!!!

All of a sudden we have Phoenix32890, NeoGuin, Wilso, edgarblythe, JLNobody, ossobuco, CodeBorg, and husker coming to the aid of Craven (not to speak of Cavfancier, who just follows the crowd)...

I wonder who's the one who called for your help, guys! (I can almost guess who it was...)

Too bad that you're not really addressing the issues... just expressing your phobias ("fears" in Greek, you know?).

There is another word that comes to mind: Paranoia.

I think that's from the Greek, too!

0 Replies

:wink:

Here's a pedagogic summary of our discussion and my argument:

The thread asked the question: When has religion irked you personally and why?

So I asked:

maliagar wrote:

Hey, people: What about occasions in which religion opened a door, or a possibility, or a solution, or inspiration to you personally? Or an occasion in which religion enriched your life?

Cavfancier replied:

cavfancier wrote:

maliagar, welcome to the thread. Personally, I have no problem expanding the thread, and would like to hear the St. Maximilian Kolbe story first.

So I did. I ended up mentioning three especially poignant cases. Then I asked for stories on the secular side:

maliagar wrote:

When I ask for the secular equivalent to Mother Teresa or Father Damian, people usually change subjects...

Cavfancier replied:

cavfancier wrote:

Bob Geldof, maliagar.

And I said:

maliagar wrote:

The real question is: Which faith is really capable of generating the type of love for our neighbor displayed by St. Max Kolbe or Mother Teresa. I'm sure there are good and bad people anywhere. Now, Mother Teresa is not just another good person, you know.

Cavfancier attempted another of his answers:

cavfancier wrote:

I think the strength of secularists is being able to determine that when they put their 'all' into a cause, it is because the cause is just, not because they feel compelled to do so by dogma.

Of course, this required some evidence... Cavfancier said:

cavfancier wrote:

I do find your thesis interesting....you have presented us secularists with a challenge: Find a Mother Teresa amongst us...I say we do it folks, yes?

Was he asking for help? He now claims he was being sarcastic:

cavfancier wrote:

I never saw this as a challenge, just a discussion. I felt no need to take up any 'challenge'. I was hoping that those posts were not a challenge at all, but an expansion of an open dialogue. Sure, I suggested we come up with some names, but that was sarcastic.

:wink:

Anyway. Since Cavfancier was too busy to find anything, Craven took the post. He said:

craven wrote:

There are thousands of secular humanists. Like I said, the difference between them and Mother T is celebrity, not necessarily dedication etc.

Unfortunately, he excused himself from providing examples of those thousands secular humanists that have one and only one difference with Mother Teresa: They are not famous--although, one assumes, they have a comparable life-long commitment to the poorest of the stinking poor. (He apparently thinks that the thousands of nuns that follow Mother Teresa's example are celebrities). He excused himself by saying:

craven wrote:

If I gave you names of secular humanists I have known who have not the fame of a Catholic celebrity what help would that be? They'd just be names to you.

Even though I had repeatedly said that I didn't care if they were famous, that I would take his word for it. All I wanted to do was to examine those secular examples, to see:

maliagar wrote:

(1) the extent and radicalism of their commitment, and
(2) if this commitment really was a result of embracing the Secular Humanist faith (or of other influences).

Unfortunately, Craven:

maliagar wrote:

(1) tried to go backwards by saying that "Christian" criteria should not be applicable to non-Christians (as if committing our lives to others were a uniquely Christian value), and
(2) avoided having to bring evidence in support of your claim by introducing an unverifiable ad hoc hypothesis: "Secular heroes are unobservable because they haven't been observed..."

Later on, his new "reasons" for not bringing evidence were:

craven wrote:

When will you get that I do not make heros out of secular humanists?

I answered:

maliagar wrote:

I don't care about who you admire, or if you admire nobody at all. I don't care if you don't have any heroes whatsoever... I'm asking you to tell me one of those thousands of stories of secularists types who did things comparable to Max Kolbe and such.

To no avail. And now he wants to get off the hook by repeating questions that have already been answered extensively and avoiding once again to bring examples here.

:wink:

Now, my argument again:

Said the Savior: "No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends." (Jn 15:13)

This is not "just a Christian value", but a universal value, for it is shared by most, if not all, societies:
* Pre-Christian and post-Christian.
* Even a society of secular atheists would have to promote it (especially for the military and civic life).

(Christian values are universal, as we see in this example, but that's another discussion).

If this value is shared by all, then we should find examples of people living it in all cultures and all religions. In fact, there are plenty of examples (for those who pay attention to these things).

However, the most radical and heroic examples of fulfilling this universal value are to be found among commited Christians: Millions of known and anonymous examples of living and dead saints through the centuries.

I gave three examples.

You gave no comparable example that would disprove my assertion that the most radical cases are to be found among Christians.

:wink:

0 Replies

cavfancier wrote:

from what I know, he is still a better Christian than you.

Maybe... But, what a daring thing to say (especially for someone who accepts that he doesn't know much about Christianity)!!!!!

Arrogance, ignorance??? Who knows...

How old are you??

:wink:

0 Replies

maliagar wrote:
Hey, people: What about occasions in which religion opened a door, or a possibility, or a solution, or inspiration to you personally? Or an occasion in which religion enriched your life?

Nobody is denying that religion can open a door or a possiblity, inspire a person, or enrich a life. In fact, if you had just left the question there, I doubt that people would have such animosity towards you at the moment.

My original point was to expand the thread to include stories of faith, among the stories of disappointment in religion, and you did indeed provide them. I don't understand why you don't get this: My original intent was to build bridges here, not burn them down. You have done quite the job of that yourself, my friend, with no help from me. You hijacked this thread for your own purposes, and continue to refuse to see that at the beginning, I was actually on your side.

0 Replies

maliagar, if you want a challenge, tell us a bit about yourself, and how Christianity inspired you PERSONALLY? That, I believe would be more in tone with the expanded thread.

0 Replies

Incidentally, I am 1000 in dog years....

0 Replies

Maliagar,

Look, name dropping is acceptable arguments only on a playground. If we were to disagree about the murder rate in our cities would you try to make me "name all the people you have seen murdered"?

I have already said I will not engage in a futile game that has no scientific validity.

I want to discuss your underlying argument on it's own merits and am asking you for a simple yes or no answer about your own opinion. You continue to refuse to do so.

Again:

Do you assert that the religious have higher moral ground than the secular?

To be fair I will name one secular humanist I knew and illustrate the futility of your game.

Zé Cabeça is the nickname of a homeless man in São Paulo that I used to help. He has, for the last 20 years had a single pursuit. He walks around and delivers bread to his fellow homeless people. He is up at 5 Am to get fresh bread from bakeries who donate to him and walks the city delivering it.

He also helped me help others (I used to teach homeless teens English on weekends) by finding them sleeping under bridges and in plazas and convincing them to educate themselves.

His dedication is such that I often wondered about it. I asked him once and he just laughed and asked me if I had something better for him to do.

José is not religious in any way.

I think me naming him is of no validity because it would only disprove an assertion you are unwilling to make anyway. That there has been at least one secular humanist in history.

I played your game, now please answer my simple question.

Are you of the opinion that the religious have moral highground over the secular?

After you answer I will take it from there.

0 Replies

cav, Actually, your avatar is your enigma. Wink

0 Replies

Heh heh...good one c.i. I like Very Happy

0 Replies

maliagar wrote:

:(Christian values are universal, as we see in this example, but that's another discussion).

If this value is shared by all, then we should find examples of people living it in all cultures and all religions. In fact, there are plenty of examples (for those who pay attention to these things).

However, the most radical and heroic examples of fulfilling this universal value are to be found among commited Christians: Millions of known and anonymous examples of living and dead saints through the centuries.

I gave three examples.

You gave no comparable example that would disprove my assertion that the most radical cases are to be found among Christians.

:wink:

Yes!

I think it is found among Islamics.

They are often willing to "lay down their lives for others" in ways that make the Christian efforts look weak.

Of course, they do have different ideas of what it means to lay down one's life for another -- but it is an easily defended idea.

So many Christians -- so few lions.

0 Replies

Quote:

So many Christians -- so few lions

So what do you know know about that in Roman times? :wink:

0 Replies

Craven de Kere wrote:

Due to religious beliefs I was denied medical attention, education and contact with the non-religious world till I was 12 (e.g. if I wanted to read a book I had to steal it and keep it hidden).

That personally irked me.

One of my friends was brought up like this - she is elderly but has a mind like a razor. She did a Sociology degree as a mature student and the best part of a Fine Art degree before an arthritic hip forced her to abandon it. She isn't sure what group they were exactly but feels they were some sort of branch of the mormons. She escaped as soon as she could which was harder in those days.

The group were divided into missionaries and those who married and raised families - they put up the missionaries when they visited on their travels.

What religious group was your family?

0 Replies

Mormons treated their people like that? whew! I knew they were a discriminatory organization where people of color were not allowed to have high office in the church. c.i.

0 Replies

Vivien,

"The Family", "The Children of God".

Now Ima goan wait for someone to use that background against me in a debate. Ise ready.

0 Replies

cavfancier wrote:

Nobody is denying that religion can open a door or a possiblity, inspire a person, or enrich a life.

Nobody? Check again. I haven't seen any examples of "open doors" yet. Not even from you, who were "on my side". Smile

cavfancier wrote:

In fact, if you had just left the question there, I doubt that people would have such animosity towards you at the moment. My original intent was to build bridges here, not burn them down.

Listen to yourself, cavfancier. You said: "I do find your thesis interesting....you have presented us secularists with a challenge: Find a Mother Teresa amongst us...I say we do it folks, yes?"

I presented my evidence, and I waited enough for yours. The impasse began when Craven and you proved unwilling or unable to cross your side of the bridge via evidence (examples, cases). And my hypothesis is that Craven and you are trying to turn the tables on me (once again) because you don't want to admit that you have no evidence for your belief that "There are thousands of secular atheist Mother Teresas out there, ignored by the mainstream media (who is always in favor of the Church and ignores secular do-gooders). Laughing

I mentioned this before: Some people seem to believe that only religious types are to provide evidence for their views. And when they bring it, opponents rush to question it. They hope to avoid having to provide their own evidence in support of their beliefs. Not the first time in A2K that "rationalists" fail to do their share. There is a name for this: Double standard.

Quote:

You hijacked this thread for your own purposes...

I don't have that power, my friend. You sound like the other guy who, impressed by my arguments, claimed that "I don't let people think". Laughing

If people have pursued the topics I presented, it is because they wanted badly to prove me wrong. However, when we reached the evidence part of the argument, they failed to follow through. You see who's burning bridges (out of their own limitations).

I was even called "not a good Christian" by those who were "building bridges" and know next to nothing about Christianity... Laughing

:wink:

0 Replies

Maliagar,

Are you going to answer?

Again: do you assert that the religious have moral high ground over the secular?

And BTW, just because it's murky don't mean it's deep. Many get caught up in what they consider their undebatable wit and wisdom when they are really just undebateable.

0 Replies

Maliagar- This thread is irking me mightily. I think that the last time that I said something like "my father is better than your father", I was about six years old.

Two things that I cannot countenance is circumlocution and intellectual masturbation.

0 Replies

Maliagar - while you are answering other questions, can you please tell me what you mean by christian values being universal?

0 Replies

dlowan, Haven't you heard about the Crusades and the Inquisition? They worked really hard at it.

0 Replies

Phoenix32890 wrote:

I think that the last time that I said something like "my father is better than your father", I was about six years old.

Maybe I'm a 6 year-old (you can play with the possibility, if you like). And in some areas, some things are definitely better than others, whether you care to see it or not.

Quote:

Two things that I cannot countenance is circumlocution...

That's exactly what I've been trying to avoid here.

Quote:

...and intellectual masturbation.

Oh.... no... We've had a group of people participating here... Even you've said a couple of (irrelevant) things. If anything, it would be group masturbation... :wink:

Now, if my interventions cause you pain, avoid them. Read only what pleases you, if that's what you need to be happy.

:wink:

0 Replies

When has religion irked you personally and why?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know