6
   

When has religion irked you personally and why?

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2003 06:56 pm
I do not think that is what Maliagar means, CI.

And yes, I have heard of those things.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2003 06:56 pm
BTW- You can add superciliousness to the list of things that I cannot countenance! :wink:
0 Replies
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2003 07:09 pm
Oh, Phoenix... If I were to make a list of the things I cannot countenance in your or other interventions...

I'm interested in the arguments, not in your or my sensibilities...

But if you have a different interest, follow your heart as I follow mine... :wink:

Phoenix32890 wrote:
BTW- You can add superciliousness to the list of things that I cannot countenance! :wink:
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2003 07:11 pm
My second youngest brother has been with the Children of God since the early 70s. He is an alcoholic and druggie. I last saw him over 20 yrs ago. He has a great scar across his forehead from when he passed out on a beer joint parking lot behind a pick up truck (the truck backed over him).
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2003 07:15 pm
dlowan, I know; just being a smart-ass for the moment; couldn't resist - the devil made me do it.
0 Replies
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2003 07:27 pm
husker wrote:
Quote:
So many Christians -- so few lions

So what do you know know about that in Roman times? :wink:


Guess which century has produced the largest number of Christian martyrs....

Not the first, second, third, or fourth centuries.

The twentieth century (under Nazism, Communism, countless dictatorships, ethnic conflicts, etc).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/129587.stm

Thursday, July 9, 1998 Published at 22:48 GMT 23:48 UK


Martyrs of the modern era

Ten 20th century Christian martyrs have been commemorated with statues at Westminster Abbey in London.

The statues were unveiled before the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh at Westminster Abbey.

Church officials of different religious denominations from all over the world joined them, including the Archbishop of Canterbury Dr George Carey, and Cardinal Basil Hume.

The martyrs chosen by the Abbey represent religious persecution and oppression in each continents.

Among them are victims of the nazism, communism and religious prejudice in Africa.

"There has never been a time in Christian history when someone, somewhere, has not died rather than compromise with the powers of oppression, tyranny and unbelief," the Rev Dr Anthony Harvey, sub-dean of Westminster, told the congregation.

"But our century, which has been the most violent in recorded history, has created a roll of Christian martyrs far exceeding that of any previous period."

The 10 statues were added to the Abbey as part of its restoration programme. The niches above the west gate had been empty since the Middle Ages.

The modern martyr

The earliest definition of a martyr meant someone who had witnessed Jesus's life. But with time, the term "martyr" has come to mean someone who, for their faith and beliefs, has suffered death at the hands of a persecutor.

Among the martyrs represented in stone are: Saint Elizabeth of Russia, killed in Russia in 1918 by the Bolsheviks, Archbishop Oscar Romero, of El Salvador, and baptist preacher Martin Luther King, both of whom were assassinated.

All of the modern martyrs spent their lives striving for a better world, but for some in particular, achieving this rested on total non-violence regardless of the might of their opposition.

The ideology of the German theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, centred around international peace and the coming together of countries through the church.

Bonhoeffer was eventually hanged in a Nazi concentration camp in 1945 for his participation in a Protestant resistance movement, but it was his work as a spiritual writer, musician and author of fiction and poetry that had been his powerful weapon.

Probably the most famous of the martyrs is Dr Martin Luther King, who also took religion as the ideological platform to bring about change in America in the 1960s.

A pastor of the African-American Baptist church, he preached within a political context of creating equal voting and civil rights for the black community.

He believed fervently in passive resistance, and his assassination in 1968, made him a symbol of the struggle for social change.

But the church itself as a religious institution has also been a target of oppression by governments and movements of the twentieth century.

Other figures represented are: Archbishop Oscar Romero, of El Salvador, Archbishop Janani Luwum, of Uganda, and Wang Zhiming, from China.

20th century martyrs

In 1918, the Grand Duchess Elizabeth of Russia was killed by the Bolsheviks.

Manche Masemola was a Anglican catechumen from South Africa who was killed in 1928 by her parents at the age of 16.

Maximilian Kolbe was canonised by the Roman Catholic Church after being killed by the Nazis in 1941.

In 1941, Lucian Tapiede, an Anglican from Papua New Guinea, was killed during the Japanese invasion.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a Lutheran pastor and theologian. killed by the Nazis in 1945.

Esther John, a Presbyterian evangelist from Pakistan, was allegedly killed by a Muslim fanatic in 1960.

One of the world's most famous civil rights activists, Martin Luther King, a baptist, was assassinated in 1969.

In 1972, Wang Zhiming was killed during the Chinese cultural revolution. He was a pastor and evangelist.

In 1977, Janani Luwum was assassinated during the rule of Idi Amin, in Uganda, for being an Anglican Archbishop.

Oscar Romero was a Roman Catholic Archbishop in El Salvado, assassinated in 1980.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2003 07:39 pm
Ho hum.
0 Replies
 
CodeBorg
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2003 07:50 pm
Rubbernecking at the scene of an accident?
Yeah, me too.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2003 08:12 pm
Christianity-Nothing so hilarious could possibly be true. Or all bad.
0 Replies
 
Vivien
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2003 01:24 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
Vivien,

"The Family", "The Children of God".

Now Ima goan wait for someone to use that background against me in a debate. Ise ready.


oops! sorry!

You have certainly educated yourself though as my friend did - against huge odds you have done incredibly - she's a strong character like you - sad to think how many went under though.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2003 07:33 am
This may well be more fun than I think I've ever had in any thread so far.

Maliagar admits he hasn't got the guts to respond to me.

Can you get over that!!!

A guy who comes on like a drunken Clark Kent has decided that the safest course of action is to ignore my comments rather than try to deal with them.

I love it.

Maliagar, you ARE one of my devoted fans.

I didn't accept it when you first said it, but you really meant it!

That is delightful.





Anyway -- TO THE OTHERS PARTICIPATING IN THIS THREAD:

Since Maliagar is afraid to respond to me directly, perhaps one of you good folks will put some of the concerns I've expressed to him for me. (Even though he may stop responding to you!)

In my last posting to him, I responded to his assertion:

Quote:
If this value (a willingness to lay down one's life for others) is shared by all, then we should find examples of people living it in all cultures and all religions. In fact, there are plenty of examples (for those who pay attention to these things).

However, the most radical and heroic examples of fulfilling this universal value are to be found among commited Christians: Millions of known and anonymous examples of living and dead saints through the centuries.

I gave three examples.

You gave no comparable example that would disprove my assertion that the most radical cases are to be found among Christians.


Now aside from the very curious wording Maliagar used in that last sentence, I offered the following response:
Quote:
I think it is found among Islamics.

They are often willing to "lay down their lives for others" in ways that make the Christian efforts look weak.

Of course, they do have different ideas of what it means to lay down one's life for another -- but it is an easily defended idea.



Any chance one of you would be willing to ask Maliagar about this?

Could you ask if Maliagar considers hijacking an airplane and flying it into a building to be a rather radical way of laying down one's life for the lives of others -- which one can argue is what is happening in the effort?

How about blowing up a truck filled with explosive while you are at the wheel as a way of laying down one's life for the lives of others?

How about the Japanese Samurai who often laid down their lives for the lives of their lords? That is pretty radical too, wouldn't you say?

How about kamikaze pilots who use to dive their explosive laden planes onto enemy ships? Sounds rather radical to me.

What do you say, folks? Anyone willing to offer this to Maliagar for me?
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2003 07:40 am
Frank, drunken Clark Kent, that's fantastic...."Able to fly into buildings in a single bound!" Laughing
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2003 12:40 pm
truth
Frank, be more gracious in your victory. This is not a prison setting wherein you can cast Maliagar into the role of your "bitch".
Assuming, of course, that Maliagar is a male.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2003 12:54 pm
Frank, You have succeeded in making us wonder if the Muslim extremists got their idea from kamikaze pilots...... c.i.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2003 01:14 pm
Well, of course, ci. The laying down of one's life for a cause isn't monopolized by the Christian religion.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2003 08:40 pm
Much of war has a suicidal aspect, whether it is called War, or a Conflict, or Terrorism (for those with no regular armies). I would guess it is about as old as history.
0 Replies
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Aug, 2003 01:16 am
dlowan wrote:
can you please tell me what you mean by christian values being universal?


Think of the Ten Commandments (do not kill, do not steal, etc.), or the positive summary presented by Jesus Christ (Love God and love your neighbor), or St. Augustine's version ("Love and do what you want").
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Aug, 2003 01:44 am
So - are you saying that christianity reflects universal values, or that christianity's values have come to be universal?

Which values of christianity do you consider to be universal?
0 Replies
 
Vivien
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Aug, 2003 03:38 am
most religions have as their core beliefs no killing, no adultery, don't mistreat people - but then we get bigoted, control freak priests of the various creeds who add lots of extras and the whole thing is twisted and distorted according to the general nastiness inherent in mankind Sad
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Aug, 2003 07:05 am
Once again I have to mention that you guys are letting Maliagar get away with murder. He is deciding the tune -- and you are dancing to the music he is choosing.

He has enough brains not to tangle with me, because he knows I won't let him get away with it. For all his bravado -- he knows I worked him over pretty good in the discussion of slavery and Catholic biblical interpretations - and now, rather than risk another mauling, he has decided to avoid contact.

At least one of you has to confront him on his bullshit on this issue -- and the confrontation has to be much more direct and insistent than you being now.


EXAMPLE:

Earlier he wrote:

Quote:
Now, my argument again:

Said the Savior: "No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends." (Jn 15:13)

This is not "just a Christian value", but a universal value, for it is shared by most, if not all, societies:
* Pre-Christian and post-Christian.
* Even a society of secular atheists would have to promote it (especially for the military and civic life).

(Christian values are universal, as we see in this example, but that's another discussion).

If this value is shared by all, then we should find examples of people living it in all cultures and all religions. In fact, there are plenty of examples (for those who pay attention to these things).

However, the most radical and heroic examples of fulfilling this universal value are to be found among commited Christians: Millions of known and anonymous examples of living and dead saints through the centuries.

I gave three examples.

You gave no comparable example that would disprove my assertion that the most radical cases are to be found among Christians.


The first part of his posting is absolute nonsense. (The last two lines I'll discuss at the end of this post!)

The most radical cases of martyrdom are to be found among non-Christians -- (my examples were Islamics and Japanese.)

Maliagar has to be called to account for this fantasy of his -- and should be made to debate why he considers Christian martyrdom more radical than the Islamic martyrs and the Japanese Samurai and Kamikazes (who are/were just as sure they are/were laying down their lives for the lives of their fellows) -- why they are not just as radical, if not more radical, than the Christian martyrs.

The fact that I am enjoying his cowardice (I had a ball bragging about it at a party yesterday) should not be reason enough for him to be allowed to evade some of the rebuttals I've brought forth. One of you -- someone Maliagar still doesn't fear too much-- really has to take up the baton and present the rebuttal under his name.

If Maliagar starts to avoid the rebuttal no matter who presents it, then he might as well run up the white flag from now on at A2K -- his credibility will be gone totally, instead of significantly, as it is now.

The rebuttal to this particular assertion of Maliagar is already here in the thread.

By avoiding it the way he is, Maliagar can continue to say, "I gave three examples. You gave no comparable example that would disprove my assertion that the most radical cases are to be found among Christians"…

…because he is right in what he said in those last two sentences.

You guys haven't!
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

700 Inconsistencies in the Bible - Discussion by onevoice
Why do we deliberately fool ourselves? - Discussion by coincidence
Spirituality - Question by Miller
Oneness vs. Trinity - Discussion by Arella Mae
give you chills - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence for Evolution! - Discussion by Bartikus
Evidence of God! - Discussion by Bartikus
One World Order?! - Discussion by Bartikus
God loves us all....!? - Discussion by Bartikus
The Preambles to Our States - Discussion by Charli
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 7.72 seconds on 12/24/2024 at 06:24:21