Question on Kinetico twin tank vs single tank design claim

I will be replacing a Fleck 9000 twin tank system that was purchased online with a single tank metered 2510SE next week.
The 9000 is using way to much water and salt.

I prefer the single tank Fleck and EcoWater systems above all others.
The EcoWater system will make the best use of your limited water usage downtime.
It uses a super quick, super efficient flash brine cycle.

HTH ~

BTW, Stargate SG-1 and spin-offs are excellent shows

Re: Question on Kinetico twin tank vs single tank design cla

I say no stupid question except the one you don't ask. And since all of us are ignorant about many things, I don't find many stupid people.

The electronics part refers to all softeners other than their alternating twin tank counter-current (upflow brined) regenerated non-electric models.

The less efficient part is because they mistakenly think their counter current (upflow) regeneration is more salt efficient than co-current (downflow) brining which is used by the vast majority of softeners. Upflow will use the same salt dose, therefore regenerate the same capacity as a downflow softener, so it is not more efficient. Upflow brined units are used to reduce leakage; meaning the amount of hardness left in the softened water. In residential, that is measured in gpg (grains/gallon), and 0 gpg is soft water but... in other applications, leakage is measured in ppm or mg/l, the same measurement. It takes 17.1 mg/l to make 1 gpg. So when the softened water has to have less hardness than 0 gpg, like in certain industries etc., then up flow is used. Any correctly softener can produce 0 gpg soft water, for the total length of the service run meaning number of days between regenerations.

They also say a twin tank type softener is more salt efficient than a regular softener because they don't require a reserve capacity as a regular softener does. What they don't like to calculate in their comparison is the fact that a twin tank uses capacity equal to or greater than the reserve capacity of a regular softener due to the twin tank softener using softened water for each regeneration of each tank each time a tank regenerates. That capacity uses salt to regenerate the used resin.

There is little to no benefit in a residential softener regenerating with softened water; or using upflow brining. I size a softener for a regeneration once every 8 days. They say their softener can regenerate a tank every 45-90 minutes, and only uses say 2 lbs of salt and maybe 15 gallons of water BUT... they usually don't say how many times a tank will be regenerated per day. Doing the math with say 2 regenerations/day (30 gals and 4 lbs) means that in 8 days they use more water and salt than my softener using 45-75 gallons and less than 10 lbs of salt every 8 days.

Very few regular softeners are ever set up to use the maxium salt dose to get the maximum capacity of the volume of resin in the tank. Yet they say their softeners use all of the capacity; which they would have to prove to me that they actually set the salt dose at maximum for the volume and type of resin they use (C-249 and C-266 [fine mesh]) in their softener. Maximum salt dose is usually stated as 15 lbs/cuft of resin. Many of their softeners only have 1/8 to 1 cuft of resin in each tank.

All softeners rinse all excess 'salt' out of the bed before the unit is put back into service at the end of a regeneration. So you can't over do it but if you use a salt dose higher than 15 lbs/cuft of resin, you're basically throwing it away.

To get upflow softeners to work well, you have to regenerate them with soft water. Regenerating a downflow softener with hard water is not a problem, but they always say it is.


Contact me to go over correct sizing and yes, a Fleck twin would do the job but you don't need a twin with the increased expense and floor space a twin requires.

Have you offered to re-program it?

It still is not worth the rip off price of thousands of dollars. And any regular two tank softener can be programmed to fit his household requirement.

The fact that the EcoWater system is vastly superior to any other system available makes it well worth the price.

ThorAsGard,

Thank you for wanting to learn more about your
choices. It is prudent to consider all options and
even more responsible when the information you have is
accurate and without prejudice or bias.

I am not sure what particular Kinetico unit was recommended for you at 15 grains per gallon. There are a number of
selections of Kinetico valves that would work fine;
some more efficient than others.

Where Mr. Slusser gets his figures is anyone's guess but they
are not accurate, out of context, and misleading. It serves no one any good to make statements that sound factual when actually they are not based on any data, testing or experience.

Let's take what you have given and figure your water
use and salt use.

If we figure you use an average of 50 gallons per
person per day. At 15gpg it would regenerate every 325
using 1 pound of salt. So if you averaged 200 gallons
per day, it would regenerate every 1.625 days, or
about 24 times a month = 24 lbs. of salt.

But let's say, as claimed, that it uses 4 lbs. per
day. That means your usage would be 1300 gpd, or 325
gallons per person. Now, that is most probably
unlikely...but, if you were to use it, Kinetico could
handle it day after day after day.

Now imagine a single tank softener trying to use 1300 gallons per day...

In fact, instead of a theoretical 48,000 per day, a Kinetico's capacity is closer to 390,000 grains per day. Again, that would
be extreme, but nonetheless doable.

Now this system uses 7 gallons to regenerate and it
takes 11 minutes and removes 5,222 grain per pound of
salt (California requires 4000 or more) and uses one pound of salt.

So let's see now, shall we, that would be 168 gallons
per month to regenerate. Not sure where the 30 gallons per day comes from, Um!

The other softener mentioned, I assume, is the Clack WS with a one-inch in-out. This is a fine valve and, in its short history, has a good record. We sell, install and service these valves as well. (Our installers and service personal have extensive experience and training on both and all prefer the Kinetico if given the choice.)

Each regeneration would take about eight days, use closer to 60 gallons (4800 grain/ one cubic foot) to regenerate (brining lasts about one hour). In a 30-day period that regenerates 3.75 times per month or 225 gallons per month. 3.75 times 8 pounds is 30 pounds of salt, times 10 pounds would 38 pounds per month.

Compare 168 to 225 doesn't seem much, but in ten years that difference is 20,160 compared to 27,000 gallons @ $.01 per gallon would be 201.60 to $270.

Compare 24 lb to 37 lb would be 2880 v 4440 for ten years or at $.11 per pound would be 316.80 v 488.40. The difference are not outlandish but clearly a difference (and contrary) from what was stated earlier.

Up-flow brining has the advantage of needing less salt and less water. The brine solution comes into contact with the resins immediately instead of going down through the freeboard (water above the resins) which dilutes the brine solution, thus needing larger volume of salt and water.

This allows shorter saturation time and less backwashing volume. That is important with city water applications as your water bill is determined by the amount of water used (and sewer bill may also reflect those numbers).

Regenerating with hard water is counter to Kinetico's philosophy to keeping the salt and resins as clean as possible. And, it is able to do it with excellent efficiency. I just can't see why washing the resins with dirty, hard, iron-laden water is a good idea.

I just wanted to add my comments but preferred to use data from manufacturer's statistics, which, in Kinetico's case, are certified by the NSF and verified by WQA. I hope this shed some light on your questions,
Andy Christensen, CWS

PS. Some people would like you to contact them privately to promote personal business which is contrary to the rules and regulations of forums. We are not here to profit from your needs but instead to give recommendations and advice based on facts, experience and a sound, ethical approach.

Andy, thank you so much for your reply, it's very helpful and informative although I have some comments and questions below.


Andy as a Kinetico salesman, are you saying you have no prejudice and bias!

The vast majority of American houses use 60 gals/person/day. That is from the AWWA (American Water Works Association) membership water company records.


When I use your figures .... 15 gpg * 200 gals/day= 3000 grains used by the family. You say the softener you are using in this comparison gets 5222 grains/lb of salt. 5222 - 3000 = 2222 grains remaing to be accounted for.

Where do those 2222 grains go? And how much salt is used to create them? And isn't that 2222 used every regeneration?

I say they go to regenerate the resin BUT the math doesn't come out right when you say the unit uses 7 gals/regeneration and we see 15 gpg hard water. The 7 gals * 15 gpg = 305 grains used. 2222-305= 1917, where are they?

Now how about you proving your math here.

Also explain how Kinetico establishes the 325 gals between regenerations AND what size resin tanks and the type of resin you are using in this case.


Actually it is a 1.5 cuft, using a 10"x54" tank and a Clack WS-1 control valve programmed to: 29K of capacity with 8.5 lbs of salt (3411 grains/lb salt efficiency). (60 gals/person/day * 15 gpg)= 240 gals/day * 15 gpg = 3600 grains/day * 8 = 28800 rounded up to 29000 grains (29K). 29000/15 gpg = a metered service run of 1933 gallons on the meter between regenerations. 1933/240 gals/day = a regeneration on average every 8.05 days.

The softener will use 57.15 gals of water and 8.5 lbs of salt per regeneration for a family of 4 with 15 gpg hardness; that's for 29K. The max salt dose of 15/cuft, 22.5 lbs would regenerate 45k.

ThorAsGard ordered it Friday and paid $688.00 total. He had Kinetico out and I believe the price was something like $2600 but I'm not sure; maybe $2200.

Now assuming you (Andy, the Kinetico salesman) are accurate with your 7 gals and 1 lb of salt and a regeneration every 325 gallons, calculated at only 50 gals/person/day by the way.... The most important number is the PRICE PAID to save very little water or salt but...

Andy, please redo your comparison with actual figures and the savings you claim for the Kinetico with my softener's actual figures.

Please tell us the volume (in cuft of each tank), type and brand of resin your Kinetico would have in it. Will be be the packed bed version that isn't upflow counter current regenerated but upflow service and downflow brined? Model number?

Please inform us of what the primary problem is with using a packed bed design and... what problems upflow regeneration can have?.

Oh BTW, please factor in the cost of the prefilter housing Kinetico always suggests, any plumbing fittings normally used (like stop valves before and after the prefilter) and the estimated cost for replacement sediment cartridges over the same ten year or whatever period of time you use to calculate the SAVINGS you say your softener will have over mine.

Back to ThorAsGard... His softener is extremely quick and easy to reprogram if he has more children etc.. No going to the local Kinetico dealer to BUY a new disk and then tear the control valve apart to change it for the old one if his water hardness changes (he's on city water and all city water changes hardness frequently.

With no experience, when needed, he can totally rebuild his Clack WS-1 control valve and have his water back on in less than 30 minutes with very low priced parts. And he can do that on his time table rather than standing around during the day to let the Kinetico guy in to service his unit at whatever price they charge that day.