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What is freewill?

 
 
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 12:39 am
Can the self understand Freewill through logical deduction?

If answers limit the possibilities,
And questions are the divisions of answers,
Then is understanding,
The product of knowing the questions,
That form the whole answer?

So where would one begin,
With a question like,
What is Freewill?

If the root prefers to express itself,
Through it's branches?

And the self prefers to express itself,
Through it's language?

Then it seems that communication,
Probably starts from a whole thing,
And branches out through division.

If perception is comparison of divisions,
And the perspective of the self,
Is a whole thing separate of the selves.

Then what is it that the self cannot divide to compare?

Can nothing be divided into nothings?

And Can the what is that is there as a whole,
Be compared to anything else?

Imagine for a moment,
That there is no connection to the external world,
All sensors are inactive,
And have never been operational.

So there is no external input to the self.

What decisions or choices,
Can one make in this type of environment?

What is there to decide between?

And what does one choose out of the nothing?

So what is it to be aware?

Or what is it that we are aware of?

Is there a distinction between the self,
And the what it is that is there?

Now let's add minimal sensory input,
Just enough so that the self,
Can have a connection,
To the supposed external environment.

It seems logical to deduce,
That the only possible form of interaction,
Would be reaction to the input,
By making a comparison.

And comparisons are made,
By finding the differences between divisions,
Whether it is this way or that way.

Which is comparable to binary logic.
Either no input,
And no reaction,
Or input,
And reaction.

So what are the,
Processes and mechanisms,
Of the human mind,
That enables it to make Comparisons?

To go into that,
Lets imagine that the human mind,
Is like a ball of yarn,
That picks up particles,
In between it's threads.

The threads are the algorithm,
And the particles are the variables.

To know the entire algorithm,
One must account for all of the variables.

Because while It may be possible,
To see where some threads lead,
By only accounting for some variables,
And denying the others.

There may be a knot or a twist,
That causes a thread,
To lead into another direction.

The ball of yarn analogy,
Can also refer to the supposed external.

The threads are the what is that is there,
And the particles are the understanding,
Of the what is that is there.

Only when one can account for all the particles,
And not deny, Avoid or Discredit any of them,
Then one can understand the entire structure.

One could also look at the mind,
And the external like a puzzle.

When something new is understood,
A piece gets put into place.

After awhile,
The borders of the puzzle get filled in.

Without restructure,
Or going beyond the limits,
That we have placed upon ourselves,
Then the outside pieces,
Cannot get into the center.

So to understand how the mind works in it's entirety,
We must account for all the possibilities.

How does the self decide,
between going one way or another?

What happens when there is input?

Is there ever not any input?

So is it possible,
That the 5 senses are like a magnet,
And the synapses are like iron filings?

As one interacts with the what is that is there,
Then the chemical reactions connect,
And link the synapses in the now time.

Then what is memory?

Is memory a trail of colored rice left behind?
The leftovers of past chemical reactions,
That appear to still be there,
But are much less intense then the current input?

It seems that after awhile,
The memory gets distorted,
And much gets written over and lost.

But that is not to suggest,
That there is a such thing as time.
Because it seems likely,
That time is relative,
To the transference of energy.

If no energy is transferred,
Then nothing changes,
And there is no conceivable progression.

What would happen if there was a separation,
Between algorithm and variables?

Would the self still be able to react effectively?

If the algorithm compares differences,
And expresses itself onto a single thing,
To form links of subdivisions.

And the perceived subdivisions,
Become part of the algorithms matrix.

And divisions continually divide,
As long as energy is being transferred.

Then how long can the algorithm,
Maintain the external state of division?

Would perception be limited,
To only a certain number of possible divisions,
At any given moment?

What determines the reaction?

If energy travels,
The shortest path of least resistance.

And if the mind requires some form of energy to function.

Then it would seem that the reaction mechanism,
Would be governed in a similar way.

It appears that exposure to input,
Causes chemical reactions in the brain,
That form links and connections through the synapses.

So the higher frequency of exposure to similar input,
The more conductive the pathway will be to transmit a signal.

So The higher the frequency of occurrence,
The less resistive those pathways become.

How then do we appear to learn?

It seems that there is,
Constant input to those pathways,
And most likely,
They do not become narrower without change.

So if the input is the same,
Then the reaction will be same.

But because division,
Becomes a division within itself,
There appears to be change.

However that is not to say,
That there is even such a thing as just division,
Because energy transference,
Is also responsible for recombination.

If previous input chemical reactions,
Leave behind trace amounts of the reaction,
That aid in the transmission between synapses.
And the reaction process is influenced,
By both the current input stream,
And the left over components,
Of the previous state of mind.

How would that effect the judgment,
And decision making of the now self?

What is the desire and focus,
That we call freewill?

If a comparison determines whether or not,
Something is different from something else.
Then it seems the focus,
Would be on contradiction.
That is to say,
The focus is only acquired,
If it contradicts with the current variables,
Of the input stream.

Obviously the pathways that are effected,
By the input stream,
Are based on the sensory input frequencies.

So it would seem that the desire,
Is to remain the same.

But divisions will always,
Be the opposite of one another.

Because they can never be similar enough,
In divided form to be the same.

So the focus is channel limited to contradiction.

Have you ever become self aware in a dream?

What exactly were you aware of?

If you think about it for awhile,
Then you will probably realize,
That you were aware of how that reality,
Contradicted this reality.
That is to say,
You were aware that it was somehow different.

What is undesirable?

It seems that there are many words,
That make reference to,
The current conception of what is undesirable.

But what is it really?

If the self only reacts to the input,
And it's world model or paradigm,
Is consistent to its current state of being.

Then what is it that causes an unbalance?

If the supposed memory is a product,
Of both the algorithm and the variables,
And decisions are influenced by both the memory effect,
Of previous states of mind,
And the current state of mind,
And the mind expects reality,
To be either one way or the other.

Then perhaps contradiction of expectation,
Is what is undesirable.

Which is to say,
That all forms of the undesired,
Suffering, pain, torment,
Wrong, bad, foolishness, unhappiness,
Etc... Etc.. Etc.
Is merely the self,
Expecting it to be different.

Is it possible for there to be,
A radical revolution,
In the human thought process?

Could one just admire,
The what is that is there?

Without trying to control it,
Or understand it,
Or compare it,
Or even expect it to be a certain way?

What would happen then?

It seems that when one listens to music,
It is most often appreciated for what it really is.

So is it possible,
To appreciate reality as a whole,
For what it really is?
And not being channel limited to contradiction?

Where is division going?

Is it really going anywhere at all?

Is it possible that it only appears to change,
Because of binary logic,
And its divisional characteristics?

Perhaps there is really nothing to compare to.
And that it is a whole thing,
That is not divided.

Can one be aware of not being aware?

So what does that say about life and death?

How relevant is difference to a whole thing?

So is there really any difference?

Or is it the easy thing to say,
That something is one way or the other?

So if One believes that the self,
Only knows the surviving self,
Or the self of the now that has always been.

Then what becomes the desire?

What would be the path of least resistance?

Is it to continually fight and struggle,
By noticing contradiction and dividing,
The what is that is there?

Or accepting reality for what it really is?

It appears that if there is,
A such thing as division,
Then it can only sustain itself,
Until it divides.

So if the self requires division,
To sustain itself,
And divisions continually divide,
And the ability to react to input,
Still requires perception of difference.

How long can the divided self sustain itself?

It would seem that even now,
Divisions are at the point,
Where the differences are not entirely clear.

And the society of selves,
Have become almost dependant on communication,
To verify the difference between divisions.

Will the divisions become so great in number,
That most reactions,
Appear ordinary and common place?

Will the reactions,
To the perceived divisions,
Become so great in number,
That the basic nutritional needs of the self,
Will become unknown to the point,
That the divided self cannot be maintained?

Will the need to supply energy to the divided selves,
Require at some point,
Energy sources,
That cause genetic disorders?

Is it possible,
That these things are already occurring?

If division is the opposite of unification,
Then what is the word that represents,
The balance between the two?

If division can be divided in both directions,
Beginning at any number.

And a infinity symbol,
Can be drawn starting at any point.

Then could division,
Eventually catch up to itself?

If unification,
Is inevitable.

And a infinity symbol,
Can still be redrawn over itself.

Then could it be that,
The what is that is there,
Is a whole thing?
But at the same time divided?
And a beginning,
But also has always been?

So perhaps Infinity,
Is the word that best represents,
Unification,
And Division.

Does the self have Freewill?

If the self,
Is the what is that is there.

And the thought process freewill,
Is a reaction to the input,
Of the what is that is there.

Then could it be,
That the word Freewill,
Is the same as Infinity?

Can infinity be Divided?
Can infinity be Unified?
Can infinity be Neither?
Can infinity be Nothing?
Can infinity be Oppressed?

Written by: Giorgio Martoni
WGA Registration Number: 1210150
InfinityTree.org
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,682 • Replies: 70
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 01:45 am
Welcome to able2know !

Quote:
Can the self understand Freewill through logical deduction?


Quite simply... NO, because as Piaget showed "logic" is merely one aspect of adult thought processes.

BTW "Free will" has been debated several times on this forum usually regarding its "existence".
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Jul, 2007 10:37 pm
Hmmm, somebody forgot to take his pill.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jul, 2007 08:50 am
THE OTHER DAY I REALISED HUMANS DO NOT POSSESS FREE WILL.

and it was a mighty mighty epiphany might i add!

what u said about no-input/limited input got me thinking though..
0 Replies
 
flakker
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 12:13 am
all you need is the illusion that you have free will and everything is right with the world.

dont need to start taking prozac over it
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 04:38 am
Who defines what free will is?
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 03:33 pm
I do not believe in "free will", but I also do not believe in "determinism." There is no "me" to be determined. Reality is doing its thing and "my" (no way to get around the first person singular because of the grammatical structure of our language) actions are Reality's actions--and "I" am part of that Reality. The truth is simple but it is revolutionary in its contradiction of our everyday assumptions.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 07:52 pm
Quote:
I do not believe in "free will", but I also do not believe in "determinism." There is no "me" to be determined. Reality is doing its thing and "my" (no way to get around the first person singular because of the grammatical structure of our language) actions are Reality's actions--and "I" am part of that Reality. The truth is simple but it is revolutionary in its contradiction of our everyday assumptions.
Quote:
Reality is doing its thing…

1. What is reality, and who defines it?
2. How does reality "DO" it's thing?
3. What is realities "Thing' ?

Quote:

It is unclear from this whether or not you hold any responsibility for your actions?

Quote:
and "I" am part of that Reality.


What is "I' in this reality you speak of?

Quote:
The truth is simple but it is revolutionary in its contradiction of our everyday assumptions.

If I were to attempt to make sense of your statements at face value, I would have to make a lot of assumptions.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Aug, 2007 10:41 pm
Vikorr, you say that if you were to attempt to make sense of my statements [at face value?], you would have to make a lot of assumptions. Yes indeed, and you would, more importantly, have to drop a lot of the assumptions you habitually make.

By the way, the illusion of the "I", the ego or agent of actions is a necessary illusion. But philosophically there is no agent of actions, only actions. Can you imagine an action without an agent? Can raining occur without a grammatical "it's" that's raining? I think so, but it is very hard to talk about it and for a society to organize around the absence of free will on the part of agents. Agency and responsibility are coterminous.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 01:12 am
Hi JLNoboby

Quote:
Vikorr, you say that if you were to attempt to make sense of my statements [at face value?], you would have to make a lot of assumptions. Yes indeed, and you would, more importantly, have to drop a lot of the assumptions you habitually make.
Quote:
The truth is simple but it is revolutionary in its contradiction of our everyday assumptions.

I then replied

Quote:
If I were to attempt to make sense of your statements at face value, I would have to make a lot of assumptions.

And you said :

Quote:
Yes indeed

So far…we seem to have agreed that I have to make assumptions about what you said in order to determine what is the truth (mind boggling in itself)…

You then said (in the first quoted paragraph of this post)…

Quote:
more importantly, have to drop a lot of the assumptions you habitually make.

[And of course

Quote:
The truth is simple but it is revolutionary in its contradiction of our everyday assumptions.

So we end up with "the assumption I have to make" contradicting "the assumptions I habitually make" (which statement is just an assumption about the assumptions I make) in order for me to determine the truth in your original post.

Mind boggling Wink

………………………..


Quote:
But philosophically there is no agent of actions, only actions.
Quote:
Can you imagine an action without an agent? Can raining occur without a grammatical "it's" that's raining? I think so…
Quote:
but it is very hard to talk about it and for a society to organize around the absence of free will on the part of agents. Agency and responsibility are coterminous.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 01:16 pm
Yes, "truth" is a problematical assumption, an assumption we cannot identify in Absolute in terms of something apart from, and as solid as, it. Absolute truth is the vacuous "that which is the case even if it is unknown and unknowable" (whatever that may be) is my working definition for this morning. We can only talk, I suppose, about relative truths. I guess we think of truths as valid propositions about reality based on various criteria: logic, empiricism, intuition, utilitarian value, etc. I do not see Reality and Truth as isomorphs. Reality we experience (OUR reality of the moment) but without necessarily understanding it intellectually. And "truths" may be merely consensually valid propositions that in the history of Mankind may be assumed to be useful errors in the evolution of human knowledge.
Ego (the doer of deeds and "subject" of experienced "objects"), agency and responsibility, and causality (unilineal relations between "discrete" artifically demarcated "causes" and "effects"), etc. are necessary fictions. Useful to everyone except the inquiring philosopher and mere delusions for the mystic.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 04:09 pm
Fair enough.

One little nitpick though :

Quote:
Useful to everyone except the inquiring philosopher and mere delusions for the mystic.


I could very easily argue that (agency and) responsibility are very useful to even the inquiring philosopher.

Out of curiosity, do you follow the philosophy that humans do everything they do out of a sense of reward/fear of punishment?
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 04:55 pm
Vikorr,
I failed to make my point clear. Obviously, the philosopher in his/her everyday life must assumes many of the ideas, interpretations and perspectives of his culture. He probably sees himself as a subject of experiences and an agent of responsible and irresonsible acts.
I was referring solely to those "inquiring" moments when he treats all that as problematical because he's after a deeper level of reality. Even the mystic operates AS IF he were a living ego, an entity separate from the rest of the world. But he knows better in his reflective moments.
As to your question, I think humans do things out of a sense of reward/fear and punishment and MUCH more. I do think (i.e., presume) that all actions are motivated, i.e., goal directed, but that the range of goals may be very great, goals that can express values few others share. We may not understand the motives of a madman, an artist, a mystic, or a new guinea highlander, etc.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 05:45 pm
Okay, got that far, but just had another thought pop up in my head :

Quote:
I was referring solely to those "inquiring" moments when he treats all that as problematical because he's after a deeper level of reality.


That a person is capable of inquiring/questioning/analysing a deeper level of reality would of necessity mean that said person is 'aware'. Awareness in and of itself (combined with the ability to act on said awareness), means one is capable of making choices beyond that of instinct (otherwise you aren't truly aware), which means free will.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 05:53 pm
When I reject "free will" I am not embracing "determinism." I reject the notion that there is an agent who is free to make choices with complete freedom. For one thing, his choices are substantially determined by unconscious forces out of his awareness. He FEELS free and that is all he really cares about.
But more important for me is the fact that my (this "he" I've been loosely talking about) actions reflect a dynamic congregation of forces that are not "me" in the narrow sense of ego; they are forces in nature. My true self is that nature. Therefore, "I" am neither free nor determined; I AM what determines as well as that determined.
I've phrased this better elsewhere. I wish I new where.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 06:31 pm
Quote:
I reject the notion that there is an agent who is free to make choices with complete freedom.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 08:51 pm
No, "self-responsibility" sounds legalistic and assumes a "self", the illusory nature of which I've been addressing.
If you read the literature on mysticism or buddhism what I've been saying would seem less confusing, if not necessarily convincing
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 09:33 pm
How do you negate the concept of awareness, when this dicussion, and philosophy itself, requires awareness (not necessarily complete awareness...just awareness)?

If there is awareness, then choice becomes possible (as does debating this concept)...

...so say I am driving a car to a particular spot...and there are two different ways to get there that both involve the same amount of everything (time, distance, stops, petrol etc)...when I exercise my choice of route, and turn my car down one path instead of the other, am I also not exercising my free will ?
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Aug, 2007 10:47 pm
Vikkor,

On examination of the "route choice " scenario notice there is NO "I" at the time. Some linguistic/logical computation has gone on which with hindsight could equally be reported as a "committee of I's engaged in debate" rather than "a single "I" making a "choice"". In other words "I" is predominantly a linguistic device /construction held together by the social convention of "one's name". (Note the dynamic relationship involving names, nicknames, titles, personalities etc). In the words of one writer "we spend most of our time fulfilling promises made by somebody else".

To be "aware" is to see this!

(Now away from computer for a few days)
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Aug, 2007 12:14 am
Ah, fresco..."I" am present at the time. "I" made the choice. That the decision does not involve any difficult thought does not remove the "I".
0 Replies
 
 

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