AFI's 100 Top American Films, Part II

Haven't yet reviewed the 400 nominations--I will link to them.

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There's a block posting the 400 nominated or even a link, access to members only.

Here's a link to AFI user's favorite film:

http://blog.afi.com/100movies/

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The link was E mailed to me with the nominated films, but you will have to register to get the PDF file, so this might now work:

http://connect.afi.com/site/DocServer/Movies_ballot_06.pdf?docID=141

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In my opinion, Hitchcock never made a bad film. However, I am suprised that "Vertigo" would be better regarded than something like "Shadow of a Doubt". Some of the same themes show up in both movies. "Vertigo" suffered because it needed a more skillful actress than Kim Novak. Teresa Wright's performance in "Shadow of a Doubt" was more effective.

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Lightwizard wrote:

Both of the Griffin are in the critic's choice list.

I, of course, completely disagree that Hitchcock's "Vertigo" is deeply flawed. You'd have to explain that one. If it's nitpicking at the coincidental plot elements, those are answered by the metaphysical layers of the film.

I must have missed all those metaphysical layers. That's something you'll have to explain to me.

In a nutshell, I thought the plot was contrived and unbelievable (even for a Hitchcock film, and that's saying a lot). Without giving too much away here, the method of dispatching the first victim is completely absurd, while the manner of the second victim's death is just silly (although it reminded me of the end of Verdi's Don Carlo, when the monk -- or ghost of Charles V -- comes out of the shadows and everything gets "resolved" unsatisfactorily). Furthermore, Jimmy Stewart's character is completely unsympathetic, especially when he fixates on Kim Novak. Really, he just gets scary-creepy by the end, and there's no basis in his character for that (just because he has vertigo doesn't mean he's a psycho). I'm not insisting upon Aristotelian exactness here, but a little foreshadowing and character development throughout the film would have been nice. Finally, the real perpetrator of the initial crime not only goes unpunished, he pretty much goes missing. I guess Hitch just lost interest in that aspect of the plot.

Lightwizard wrote:

It's about, after all, Scotty's obsession and his fears. It's succeeds -- when I first saw it and anytime I've put it in the DVD player. Any friends or relatives who haven't seen it and I sit a watch it with them have been bowled over. Not a film that one can approach intellectually -- Hitchcock's skills as a director are all honed to perfection in this film.

It would be a pleasure to sit down with you and watch Vertigo together. You might be able to change my mind, although I'm skeptical.

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wandeljw wrote:

"Vertigo" suffered because it needed a more skillful actress than Kim Novak. Teresa Wright's performance in "Shadow of a Doubt" was more effective.

I agree, and that's not saying much for Theresa Wright.

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Novak turned out to be the perfect actress for that roll of the icy, affluent wife and obsessed Madeleine, and then the vulnerable, conniving but sympathetic Judy -- who would you suggest? It's a fictional story of compulsion, obsession, betrayal and it's fiction -- that it might not be something possible in real life is superfluous. Most every good fictional story is way beyond rational ordinary lives. I don't believe most of Dickens either. However, the author is in control of your imagination while you are reading. Film is another bag-of-tricks and either the skill of the screenwriters and Hitchcock successfully convinced you into believing it was possible or they did not. What the film was really about was not particularly the story itself. Really as simple as that. An author or a filmmaker cannot connect with everyone. Although I also enjoy "Shadow of a Doubt," it's several notches below "Vertigo," "Rear Window" and "North by Northwest." "Rebecca" is closer to it, or "Notorious," which is my second favorite Hitchcock film.

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Lightwizard wrote:

Novak turned out to be the perfect actress for that roll of the icy, affluent wife and obsessed Madeleine, and then the vulnerable, conniving but sympathetic Judy -- who would you suggest?

Grace Kelly. Eva Marie Saint. Margaret Hamilton.

Lightwizard wrote:

It's a fictional story of compulsion, obsession, betrayal and it's fiction -- that it might not be something possible in real life is superfluous. Most every good fictional story is way beyond rational ordinary lives.

I disagree. Most every good fictional story has a pretty firm basis in the rational and ordinary. Even science fiction and horror stories stay pretty close to reality.

Lightwizard wrote:

Film is another bag-of-tricks and either the skill of the screenwriters and Hitchcock successfully convinced you into believing it was possible or they did not.

They didn't.

Lightwizard wrote:

What the film was really about was not particularly the story itself.

You'll have to explain that better. If the film isn't really about what it's about, then what is it about?

Lightwizard wrote:

Really as simple as that.

That doesn't sound simple at all.

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LW,

I honestly respect your knowledge of film more than my own knowledge.

In my opinion, Grace Kelly could have done a better job than Kim Novak, but probably was not available.

The first time I saw "Shadow of a Doubt", I merely considered it to be a good thriller. I saw it again when I was older, and was able to appreciate its themes of disappointment, betrayal, and the incongruity of a serial killer living with a bland, small-town "perfect family".

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joefromchicago wrote:

Bringing Up Baby: Katherine Hepburn, Cary Grant, a leopard. What's not to like? Everything. I really dislike this film.

BLASPHEMY!!

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wandeljw wrote:

The first time I saw "Shadow of a Doubt", I merely considered it to be a good thriller. I saw it again when I was older, and was able to appreciate its themes of disappointment, betrayal, and the incongruity of a serial killer living with a bland, small-town "perfect family".

I had meant to use "disillusionment" rather than "disappointment" as one of the themes in "Shadow of a Doubt".

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happycat wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

Bringing Up Baby: Katherine Hepburn, Cary Grant, a leopard. What's not to like? Everything. I really dislike this film.

BLASPHEMY!!

I think there is a very fine line in "screwball comedies" between endearingly kooky and irritatingly dense. Carole Lombard in My Man Godfrey or Nothing Sacred: endearingly kooky. Katherine Hepburn in Bringing Up Baby: irritatingly dense. Really, if I were Cary Grant's character, I wouldn't fall in love with Hepburn, I'd want to slap her like a string bass.

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"Bringing Up Baby" shows its age but gave Cary Grant the first chance to appear in drag, well not full drag. "Sullivan's Travels," for instance, as a serio-comedy will never be dated. It has some brilliant slapstick in the runaway land yacht. I'm chuckling away right now.

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joefromchicago wrote:

happycat wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:

Bringing Up Baby: Katherine Hepburn, Cary Grant, a leopard. What's not to like? Everything. I really dislike this film.

BLASPHEMY!!

I think there is a very fine line in "screwball comedies" between endearingly kooky and irritatingly dense. Carole Lombard in My Man Godfrey or Nothing Sacred: endearingly kooky. Katherine Hepburn in Bringing Up Baby: irritatingly dense. Really, if I were Cary Grant's character, I wouldn't fall in love with Hepburn, I'd want to slap her like a string bass.

Susan (Hepburn) was not irritatingly dense! She knew exactly what she was doing to catch David (Grant)....and she succeeded! Cool

Bringing Up Baby is the ultimate "screwball comedy!"

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Grace Kelly could probably pull off the Judy part but name any role where she's portrayed anything like that character. She was not a wide-range actress if one looks closely at her filmography. However, it's no doubt to me that the performance Hitchcock coaxed out of Kim Novak could have been coaxed out of Kelly. Problem is, I could never believe Kelly as the perverted, greedy Judy portraying Madeleine to facilitate a murder. Of course, these were two main characters probably none of would like to know nor every have known. Kelly's performance as Madeleine may have been icy and distant, but not with that element of sociopathy which was in Judy, and she would still be too likeable. Neither character is likeable in the end, but if one wants to laud only movies where the characters are likeable, they've cut out a lot of great movies. Jimmy Stewart's anti-hero was completely off-the-map for him -- if anyone watches that film and comes away believe he only suffers from vertigo, they didn't watch very closely. The story is a framework revealing the character of the two lovers but I'm sure, witnessing Joe's rebuttal, I could never convince anyone who decided they don't like the film. On the international critic's list, it's second, right under "Citizen Kane."

Incidentally, "Shadow of a Doubt" is number 315 on the 400 nominations and I was happy to see "Sideways" included in the 400. That list, of course, is in alphabetical order so the number at this stage doesn't mean anything.

I see Stuh has posted his own top 40 -- as opinion on film is more subjective than objective, I can understand some guilty pleasures and anybody's list could be picked on.

These films don't get nominated just based on personal taste but for their position in film history. Many films we enjoy don't belong on that list.

The AFI Criteria:

Judging criteria for the selection process of the Top 100 films included:

Feature-Length Fiction Film - narrative format typically over 60 minutes in length

American Film - English language film with significant creative and/or financial production elements from the United States.

Critical Recognition - formal commendation in print

Popularity Over Time - including figures for box office adjusted for inflation, television broadcasts and syndication, and home video sales and rentals

Historical Significance - a film's mark on the history of the moving image through technical innovation, visionary narrative devices or other groundbreaking achievements

Cultural Impact - a film's mark on American society in matters of style and substance

Major Award Winner - recognition from competitive events including awards from organizations in the film community and major film festivals

If one looks at the 400 nominations, I'm sure they'll find many of their favorites.

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Lightwizard wrote:

Jimmy Stewart's anti-hero was completely off-the-map for him -- if anyone watches that film and comes away believe he only suffers from vertigo, they didn't watch very closely.

And that's a big problem with the film, as I see it. Clearly, Stewart's character doesn't suffer only from vertigo -- he has some kind of obsessive compulsion that really takes over his character in the second half of the film. But there's no set-up for that, no foreshadowing, nothing that would tip off the audience that Stewart is a few bricks shy of a load. To some, that might be an intriguing ambiguity. To me, that's sloppy storytelling.

Vertigo isn't the only film on the AFI 100 list that I have problems with. Others include Pulp Fiction, The Philadelphia Story, and My Fair Lady. But I don't want to turn this into another "Everyone loved them -- I cringed" thread. Obviously, many more people like Vertigo than dislike it. De gustibus non est disputandum.

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Stewart is turned into a man a few bricks shy of a load by the obsessive love. It was a carnal love -- had he really looked beyond the facade of both Madeleine and Judy (although if one doesn't know the outcome watching ti for the first time, Hitchcock draws you into liking Madeleine and wanting things to work out for them as the husband is drawn as a wealthy milquetoast personality). It's a difficult film to analyze after one sees it for the first time, in my case, in high school at the Montebello theater in the original Vista Vision print. The restoration is better than I remember the original film. Not sloppy storytelling for me, but a fine tuned development of both characters. I still only debate that Hitchcock decided, at the last moment something not in the original material -- Judy's flashback in the motel room. On seeing it again recently, it did work, despite the fact that it was added to clarify what some audience members might not comprehend. It actually heightened the suspense of how Stewart will react when he regains his cognitive rationality and isn't blinded by love.

No list with the prescribed criteria isn't going to contain films one doesn't like. Exclude "Pulp Fiction, " "The Philadelphia Story," and "My Fair Lady?" I don't think so.

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If you didn't get to watch -- www.moviefone.com will post the results tonight at 11:00 PM.

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joefromchicago wrote:

Lightwizard wrote:
Jimmy Stewart's anti-hero was completely off-the-map for him -- if anyone watches that film and comes away believe he only suffers from vertigo, they didn't watch very closely.

And that's a big problem with the film, as I see it. Clearly, Stewart's character doesn't suffer only from vertigo -- he has some kind of obsessive compulsion that really takes over his character in the second half of the film. But there's no set-up for that, no foreshadowing, nothing that would tip off the audience that Stewart is a few bricks shy of a load. To some, that might be an intriguing ambiguity. To me, that's sloppy storytelling.

You have to remember that Vertigo was released in 1958, and there wasn't as much common public knowledge about OCD and other disorders. Fifty years ago moviegoers were much more accepting regarding their character's mental and/or emotional state. We tend to over-analyze characters nowadays. jmho

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"Vertigo" number 9 on the new list , bookended by "The Wizard of Oz" and "Schindler's List" -- the fact that the film spurs conjecture and debate after this many years is enough to keep it high on any list.

The new AFI 100 Years and 100 Movies has some new additions -- glad to see "Blade Runner," "All the President's Men," "Sullivan's Travels," "LOTR,"
"The General," "Intolerance" and "Cabaret" added to the list. Hitchcock has two on the list -- "Vertigo" ahead of "Psycho."

It's available now in a PDF file that shows the new additions and the ranking of a particular film up nor down on the lists.

www.afi.com

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AFI's 100 Top American Films, Part II

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