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Drama group accused of Jewish racism

 
 
dadpad
 
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2007 06:18 am
Our little drama group Is staging the play Oliver A person has phoned and complained that the logo we used for the show is racist toward Jewish people.
The logo is a stylised profile of the character Fagan from the show.

The logo was drawn by a local artist and copy write is established so I will be removing the image after a day or so.

Apparently (according to the caller) depicting someone with with hat, beard and big nose means that we are being racist towards Jews. I had not noticed that the logo has a big nose until the caller pointed this out.

I subsequently found out that the character Fagan is supposedly Jewish. A fact I was not aware of prior to the caller pointing this out.

In your opinion have we been racist?

If you are Jewish or have Jewish friends/relatives are you offended?

I could go along with stereotyping now that I am aware of the characters history.... but Racist? Thats a bit of a stretch.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a40/dadpad/online%20photos/Logo.jpg
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Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2007 07:07 am
I'm not offened, although he does look like the sterotypical Hasidic profile. Fagan was a product of Dickens and his times, anti-semitism was the norm. Same for Shakespeare and his character Shylock. I don't think it's a big deal when seen in context with history and literature. I am a little surprised that Fagan was chosen to promote the production instead of an image of the title character.

So what part are you playing DP?
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dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2007 07:24 am
Green Witch wrote:

So what part are you playing DP?


Left back, scrounger and doer of "stuff".

For example tonight is opening night. I stayed home. At interval I got a call from mumpad (producer) to say could I please find three pair of kitchen tongs and bring them to the theatre immediately.

Shocked

I didnt ask why, just did it.

They love me cause I just "find" what they want. Sometimes I need to know what they want to achieve so I can substitute.
Son is 1st assistant sound man.

Reports from the theatre at interval were "magic show" and "perfect" second half of opening night can be...challenging.

The show has about 20 kids in it. Along with sundry makeup ladies, front of house, stage crew, and techies, we have officially designated "kid wranglers" each has a wooden spoon with "not afraid to use it" written on it. I'm sure they won't need to.

Good thing I'm staying home I think.
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2007 05:20 pm
Green Witch wrote:
I'm not offened, although he does look like the sterotypical Hasidic profile. Fagan was a product of Dickens and his times, anti-semitism was the norm. Same for Shakespeare and his character Shylock. I don't think it's a big deal when seen in context with history and literature. I am a little surprised that Fagan was chosen to promote the production instead of an image of the title character.

So what part are you playing DP?


I have a similar reaction like GW's -- there is certainly a bit of stereotyping and I can kind of see it if that's what you're really looking for, if that makes any sense. Sorry I can't explain this better but Dickens definitely intended Fagan to be Jewish and, since he's no one's idea of a sympathetic character (although he still beats the heck out of scary Bill Sykes), the whole thing can feel very unflattering or worse. Hmm I wish I could explain this better and not just make this look like a gut reaction although that's a part of it.

I have nothing against Shakespeare or the book/play/film. And I think seeing offense in the poster is stretching things a bit, but I can't say that I think it's wholly, 100% absolutely and completely unfounded.
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2007 10:58 am
Is Fagan spelled Fagin? Regardless, in my opinion, the character is just reinforcing a negative stereotype about Jews (aka "Jewish people").
There are many characters that reinforce negative stereotypes. That's why we don't see Amos N' Andy on tv anymore in the USA. There are no Amos N' Andy characters alive, I doubt if there ever were any, but this negative stereotype is just plain old offensive. Perhaps, many negative stereotypes are just canards?
Also, when Jews (aka "Jewish people") are very much contributing members of our society, here in the USA, choosing a play by an author that did not know of any positive stereotypes about Jews (aka...), such as the discoverers of both polio vaccines, reflected a bit of what? I can't read minds, so I don't know what it reflected. Nothing malicious I'm sure.
Possibly, the depiction of Fagin in the musical just reflects a cultural norm for that historical period, like today wishing everyone a "Merry Christmas" around December 20, even when that person is a Hindu, Buddhist, or Jew. In otherwords, with no malicious intent, sometimes an error in political correctness is made, since few of us are schooled in cross-cultural sensitivities.
An opposite argument could also be made that not to depict Fagin as he was depicted would be historically inaccurate for the musical. The question then arises what is the goal, historical accuracy or political correctness.
Why not the musical South Pacific?
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jespah
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 04:30 am
Foofie wrote:
Is Fagan spelled Fagin? Regardless, in my opinion, the character is just reinforcing a negative stereotype about Jews (aka "Jewish people").
There are many characters that reinforce negative stereotypes. That's why we don't see Amos N' Andy on tv anymore in the USA. There are no Amos N' Andy characters alive, I doubt if there ever were any, but this negative stereotype is just plain old offensive. Perhaps, many negative stereotypes are just canards?
Also, when Jews (aka "Jewish people") are very much contributing members of our society, here in the USA, choosing a play by an author that did not know of any positive stereotypes about Jews (aka...), such as the discoverers of both polio vaccines, reflected a bit of what? I can't read minds, so I don't know what it reflected. Nothing malicious I'm sure.
Possibly, the depiction of Fagin in the musical just reflects a cultural norm for that historical period, like today wishing everyone a "Merry Christmas" around December 20, even when that person is a Hindu, Buddhist, or Jew. In otherwords, with no malicious intent, sometimes an error in political correctness is made, since few of us are schooled in cross-cultural sensitivities.
An opposite argument could also be made that not to depict Fagin as he was depicted would be historically inaccurate for the musical. The question then arises what is the goal, historical accuracy or political correctness.
Why not the musical South Pacific?


Jews (aka "Jewish people") ? As opposed to Jewish aarvarks?

Dickens lived long before there were polio vaccines. But even if he hadn't, the point is, in part, that Fagan (or Fagin) isn't even the main character in the story. It's an odd depiction in the poster, at best. And at worst it throws up a needless stereotype. Plenty of us aardvarks don't have large noses or look overly sinister.

Like I said above, Fagan is a negative in the story but he's not as much of a negative as Sykes. If you want to show the big villain in your poster (and I still don't understand why you would as the play is "Oliver" not "Bill") then I'd pick Sykes instead.

The play reflects when the book was written and I make no objections to the play. But the poster was drawn today.

Anyway, the play is done and gone, is it not?
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Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 06:12 am
I ate some ants once. I was at summer camp sometime around 1969 and I excused myself from a volleyball game to go to the bathroom. To get to the bathroom I had to go through the mess hall where lunch was being laid out. As I went past the tables I noticed some mini Hostess cupcakes (the chocolate ones with the zig zag white stripe on top) sitting on a plate on one of the tables. I quickly grabbed one and popped it in my mouth. I immediately knew something was wrong, I could feel little moving crunchy things between my teeth. I proceeded to spit the thing out all over my hand and discovered (to my extreme horror) that little ants had been all over that cupcake. I'm sure a few made it down my throat and into my digestive tract. To this day I can not see a hostess cupcake without shivering with disgust.
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dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 07:37 am
jespah wrote:

Anyway, the play is done and gone, is it not?


The play was a roaring success. The highest grossing production we have had in 25 years. We turned people away at the door on all of the last 4 nights. But lets keep it in perspective, this is an entirely voluntary and amateur production. I'll ask about posting some of the photos.

Of note is the fact that our local state member of parliament is named Bill Sykes. he entered into the spirit dressed in an appropriate costume on the night he attended.

We even made the legislative assembly record of parliament.
VIC HANSARD wrote:


I congratulate the Benalla Theatre Company and the
Mansfield Musical and Dramatic Society on entertaining our local communities, something which
the actors and the whole crew clearly enjoyed doing.
Community spirit is alive and well in country Victoria.

Talking of nasty pieces of work, the action by the
Bracks government in stealing water from northern
Victoria to satisfy Melbourne's insatiable appetite for
water is an absolute disgrace!


VIC hansard
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 08:49 am
English authors frequently have unflattering depictions of Jews, and of the Irish, too. I'm of Irish descent, and although i was resentful when younger, with time i matured enough to understand that the stereotypes were a product of ignorance and fear, as much as of contempt. People despise most those whom they most abuse--i suppose it helps to lay the ghost of their "morality," which wouldn't allow them to treat white, English Protestants as they will blacks, Irish Catholics or Jews. The nasty depictions of the Irish have continued almost to the present day (with the bizarre contradiction that as soon as someone of Irish descent--a Callahan, or an O'Hanlon, or a Murphy--is born and raised in England, they become English, as though the racial stereotype which condemns them as inherently inferior is voided by "cultural cleansing." Even when a writer is attempting to be sympathetic to Jews or the Irish, the stereotypes are often in place, because there are aspects which the author just doesn't get. In Daniel Deronda, George Eliot (pen name of Mary Anne Evans) produces a tedious novel which is more than half over before you realize that the subject is a typical white, Anglo-Saxon Protestant coming to terms with casual antisemitism when he "falls in love" with a Jewish girl. It's not a well written novel, and it is unconvincing because there are aspects of the stereotyping of which Miss Evans was apparently unaware.

It think perhaps the objections to the logo were overblown, but i can't help but agree with Jespah in the notion that using Fagin is rather quixotic. Not only is he not central to the story (although a crucially important character), he doesn't appear much in the story--in the novel, at any rate.
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cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 08:59 am
Does the guy in the logo have his fist in a tight wad?
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Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 06:39 am
Since Dickens' novels were an attempt to correct some of his society's ills, including mistreatment of children, I see in the character Fagan an archetype villain that was telling the reader in 19th century Britain, give your children a good home, or they too can wind up in the clutches of this villain. So, in the spirit of thoroughness, let's not call Fagan an anti-Semitic depiction of a character, but a character that elicites Judeophobia (fear of the Jew).
This broaches the question of whether Dickens himself disliked Jews, or was Dickens just using the Judeophobia of 19th century Britain to "sell" the idea of not letting children become street urchins?
What I think is the current question, is whether this Judeophobia still is alive and healthy? I say this in context of my opinion that the Holocaust style anti-Semitism is safely gone (I say only safely) in Europe; however, how many people still harbor the Judeophobia of wondering what The Jews are up to? (Even British Jews that are totally assimilated into the British culture.) I ask this as an American, since I believe that Gentile Americans are not totally comfortable with Jews (let's not even include the whole social pecking order of WASP's that excludes many other ethnic/religious groups), unless of course a Gentile has found good utility from someone that is Jewish. Meaning a Jewish teacher that helps their child to learn to read, or a Jewish dentist that fixes one's teeth, or a Jewish doctor that cures the earache in one's child's ear. In other words, when one has found good utility in a Jew, that Jew becomes accepted. Otherwise, more often than not, I believe the feeling is that one's social status can be diminished by having too much to do with "those people."
I think the world has had a love/hate relationship with Jews over the centuries. I think this has resulted in a Jewish constitutional "thick skin" for many of the "Hebrew persuasian."
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 06:46 am
Because Dickens does not use the word Jew in the story, I think that people not steeped in racism, or who have not been recipients of racist targeting, may not always make the connection here. I read Oliver Twist as a child, and was never aware that Fagin was such a stereotype. I never associated him with a specific group, except the underworld he lived in.
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Tarah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Aug, 2007 03:13 pm
I saw Merchant of Venice at the Globe Theatre yesterday. Apart from "The quality of mercy" speech, Shylock has all the best lines.

In this version Shylock didn't have one of those middle-European accents but the guy who mimicked him did have one. It made me feel very uncomfortable (to the extent I wanted to go on the stage and slap him for being anti-Semitic) and my friend, who hadn't known the story in advance, told me she would never see another Shakespeare play - which I admit was over-reacting somewhat.

As for the Fagan poster, I guess the simple truth is we all recognize the stereotype of Fagan and although we all know what Harry Potter looks like, Oliver could be any little boy.
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FlyFoy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2007 04:21 pm
jespah wrote:
Foofie wrote:


Dickens lived long before there were polio vaccines.


Foofie didn't say the author of the novel (Dickens) pre-dated the polio vaccine. He or she said the author of the play, i.e., Lionel Bart...a Jew himself! In addition to the fact that Lionel Bart was Jewish, several of the main characters in the original London production of "Oliver" were played by Jews, including Ron Moody as Fagin, Georgia Brown as Nancy, and Martin Horsey as the Artful Dodger.

Does this mean that I approve of negative Jewish stereotypes (or any kind of stereotypes)? No, and quite frankly, it has always puzzled me that Lionel Bart should have chosen to write "Oliver" and that Ron Moody should have agreed to play such a character, but I guess Bart had some great ideas for the show (it IS a fabulous show) and a role like Fagin (particularly since Bart lightened him up and made him comical...almost lovable...and nicer to the boys than he was in the novel) was hard to turn down. It's a hell of a role.
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FlyFoy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Sep, 2007 04:29 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
Because Dickens does not use the word Jew in the story, I think that people not steeped in racism, or who have not been recipients of racist targeting, may not always make the connection here. I read Oliver Twist as a child, and was never aware that Fagin was such a stereotype. I never associated him with a specific group, except the underworld he lived in.


Dickens most certainly does use the word "Jew," edgarblythe. He refers to Fagin repeatedly as "the Jew" or "the old Jew."
nicejewishboy
 
  2  
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 08:37 pm
@FlyFoy,
Dickens was not antisemitic - far from it! However, he did use a commonplace caricature of the 1830s of Jews as "mysterious", "strange", "the other" - because the ambivalent & sinister character "Fagin" demanded such. Ironically, by this time in England Jews had been emancipated & , therefore, Dickens probably felt it "safe" to make Fagin a Jew: had he made him Italian (the ethnicity of most "gangmasters" of the London underworld of the time) there was a risk of provoking an anti-Italian populist backlash, whereas a Jew was a safe bet because they were generally well regarded. NB Britain's greatest C19th Prime Minister, Benjamin Disraeli, was Jewish - and a great favourite of Queen Victoria; some alleged they were lovers!

Due to criticism, & after much reflection/ soul searching, Dickens did later regret the frequent references to Fagin as "the Jew": later editions of "Oliver Twist" were, therefore, amended and 90% of the references removed & terms like "the old man" substituted. Dickens' final completed novel, "Our Mutual Friend", contains the character Riah - one of the most positive/ sympathetic portrayals of a Jew in literature: many think this was Dickens' counterpoint to Fagin; a way of balancing things up & making amends for any offence given.

BTW, Dickens sold his London house to a Jewish couple - for a lower price than he'd been offered by other prospective buyers. Why? Because he wanted the house to be owned by a family who'd fill it with children - hardly the behaviour of an antisemite!

Ref the musical "Oliver!" (loosely based on "Oliver Twist"): authored & composed by Lionel Begleiter (aka "Bart") - Jewish. First stage production, The New Theatre, London, 1960, starred Ronald Moodnik (aka "Moody") - Jewish; Lilian Klot (aka "Georgia Brown") - Jewish, and Martin Horsey - yes, you've guessed it, Jewish. Oh, and Peter Coe was also, I think, Jewish.

The whole musical is really a celebration of Cockney life/ culture in the old East End (changing rapidly by the late 1950s/ early '60s), and as everyone knows this culture was intrinsically Jewish: listen to the music, for crying out loud, its rhythm is essentially Jewish ( plus a heavy smattering of good olde music hall), and the musical's Fagin is, as Ron Moody put it, "a clown".

I do get tired of people who twitter on about "Oliver!" being antisemitic - get a clue about its origins & context, please!
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