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Tue 22 Jul, 2003 12:59 pm
Over in Abuzz, I've been in a long discussion with someone about the Adam and Eve story.
She claims Adam and Eve "sinned" -- and were punished for their sinning.
I have asserted that calling what they did a "sin" makes no sense, because they did not know the difference between good and evil -- between right and wrong.
The story -- in my opinion, the fable -- has the god of the Bible telling them that they were not to eat of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
It was, from all indications, a set up -- a sting.
Surely the god knew that they would eat of the fruit of that tree -- and why not! They did not know that disobeying the god was evil or wrong. It was, to these innocents, like going for a walk.
And the god, not one to leave things to chance, made sure that the greatest, most experienced tempter ever to exist -- was in the garden with Adam and Eve -- so that he could tempt them to eat of the fruit.
They ate the fruit, as any 5th grader could have told the god they would do -- and thereby discovered what was good and what was evil.
But since they did not know it was evil or wrong to do what they did -- and considering the nature of the sting -- should what they did be considered a sin?
What do you suppose to be the minimum requirement of a sin?
Of course, they did not know what was right and wrong, but they had an unequivocal instruction to avoid the fruit of the specific tree, and this instruction was given by the Supreme Boss of all the existing entities. Sin by its very essence is doing something that contradicts the Lord's will. They have ignored the Divine prohibition, hence they have sinned.
"Sin", as used in the bible, has no pre-condition set on it. Anything that violates the rules established by "God" is a sin. Whether the sin is commited intentionally, knowingly, etc.. or not is irrelevant.
You seem to be equeating the concept of sin to our idea of "guilty" being based on a need for the accused to comprehend their actions were wrong. "Sin", as used in the bible, has no such requirement.
Yup, they sinned.
They were told.
Your supposition seems to render humans as incapable of withstanding temptation.
<Not that I'm so sure I would have done any better...>
um were they ever married?
one that always bothered me,who did Cain marry? There werent any other people around were there? Somebody had a bad writing day when they made up these stories.
Of course i am just assuming they were physically intricate prior to the eating of the apple thing, so I'm guessing that sans marriage they had already sinned, but what the heck I'm just a heathen anyway and that part about eating the apple knowledge of good and evil stuff, I'm pretty sure it was a tomato.
I've heard it was a pomegranate. Apple's don't grow very well in hot climates.
While you're on the topic, how about a disection of the ten commandments. Some of the list never made sense to me.
I mean if you don't covet your neighbours goods, how the hell do you ever compete with the Joneses.
Thanks,
Ceili
You've received your answer frank.
Adam and Eve were forbidden by God to eat of the fruit from the tree of Knowledge. Whether their disobedience is called "sin" or "quiqly," they disobeyed.
Think of what reprobates they must have been.
Can you imagine disobeying God? A voice like John Houston's speaks to you from the heavens and tells you in no uncertain terms not to eat the fruit from a big ass tree. A snake (a lousy snake!) tells you to screw God and eat the damned apple.
Do you eat the damned apple?
These two clowns did.
Can you imagine having them as kids?
Man, how they screwed it up for the rest of us.
Let me get this straight; god creates adam and eve as sexual beings, then tells them they must not have sex. If anybody knows anything about sex drive, who's kidding who? c.i.
I guess nobody told god about the birds and the bees. c.i.
steissd wrote:Of course, they did not know what was right and wrong, but they had an unequivocal instruction to avoid the fruit of the specific tree, and this instruction was given by the Supreme Boss of all the existing entities. Sin by its very essence is doing something that contradicts the Lord's will. They have ignored the Divine prohibition, hence they have sinned.
But since they did not know that not following an unequivocal instruction was wrong or evil -- why should it be consider a sin? Why should they be punished when they were deprived of the knowledge necessary to understand the rightness and wrongness of these kinds of situations -- and were deprived of that knowledge by the god?
fishin' wrote:"Sin", as used in the bible, has no pre-condition set on it. Anything that violates the rules established by "God" is a sin. Whether the sin is commited intentionally, knowingly, etc.. or not is irrelevant.
You seem to be equeating the concept of sin to our idea of "guilty" being based on a need for the accused to comprehend their actions were wrong. "Sin", as used in the bible, has no such requirement.
So you are saying that we humans can sin without even knowing that we are committing a sin?
And if you are saying that, don't you think a god who would set things up that way is not being especially fair?
(I understand a god is under no compulsion to be fair -- but I am asking if you think it is being fair to do what you are saying is the case.)
Sofia wrote:Yup, they sinned.
They were told.
Your supposition seems to render humans as incapable of withstanding temptation.
<Not that I'm so sure I would have done any better...>
No way!
I just think they had essential information withheld from them.
They did not know it was wrong not to obey.
The god of the Bible went out of his way to withhold that information from them -- which, of course, is the reason for the disobedience.
If they knew right from wrong -- they may very well have resisted the temptation. But not knowing right from wrong -- good from evil...
...eating or not eating -- disobeying or not disobeying -- were all equals.
There is a lot more to go in this -- and there are several other issue that have to be covered. But I am interested in the responses to the responses I just gave first.
Celli, Djinn, ci -- I'll get back to you.
The biggest sin god made was that adam and eve's sin punished all humanity. c.i.
(Something apparantly God and Ken Starr are good at).
Did Adam and Eve sin? Well, if sin is defined as doing something against God's will, no.
Given that God is omniscient and omnipotent, he KNEW how each one of his created beings would react to a specific set of circumstances. He could have designed Adam with more willpower or Eve with less perspicacity and courage. He could have withheld the truth about the tree from the serpent, as he did from Adam and Eve. He could have spent some time teaching obedience and self-discipline to Adam and Eve before giving them a test that he knew they would fail.
If it was not God's will that Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he would not have created them in such a way and put them in a situation where they would certainly do so.
Can God do anything that is against God's Will? If so, he sins against himself, which violates the tenet that he is without sin. If not, then Adam and Eve did exactly what he willed them to do, and therefore did not sin.
God told Adam that if he ate from the tree he would die. The serpent told Eve that they would not die, but that their eyes would be opened and they would be like God, knowing good and evil. Eve saw that the fruit was good for food, pleasing to the eye, and desirable for gaining wisdom.
Either God or the serpent was lying. With no knowledge of good and evil, how could Eve know which one to trust? Should she risk death to gain wisdom, or choose an eternity of submissive ignorance?
She ate, and did not die. She gave fruit to her husband and their eyes were opened. They did not die on that day, but lived for hundreds of years. The serpent had told her the truth. God had lied.
Thanks to Eve's courage we have the wisdom of the gods, and she was no more sinful than Prometheus.
Let's not waste her gift to us.
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