Adam and Eve -- Did they sin?

So you are saying that we humans can sin without even knowing that we are committing a sin?

And if you are saying that, don't you think a god who would set things up that way is not being especially fair?

Frank Apisa wrote:

So you are saying that we humans can sin without even knowing that we are committing a sin?

Yup.

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And if you are saying that, don't you think a god who would set things up that way is not being especially fair?

It's the price of free will baby!

But, if one is to believe that "sin" matters then they are aware of the possible existance of "God" and would presumably seek out what this God wants and/or doesn't want.

Again, if one is to believe the bible then in that same bible they'd find the rules laid out for them in the form of the 10 Commandments as well as the methods for redemption for any past sins they may have committed. We each have the free will to choose to do this or not.

If the individual doesn't believe that the concept of sin matters or that "God" exists then the entire issue is moot isn't it? If there is no God then the entire concept of "sin" is made up and there is no God there in the end to seek retribution for anyone having commited any of them.

Let me get this straight; god creates adam and eve as sexual beings, then tells them they must not have sex. If anybody knows anything about sex drive, who's kidding who? c.i.

In effect, that was what Adam and Eve were doing -- trying to find out what is good and what is evil.

Look what it got them!

Actually, one would find a lot more than just 10. Don't forget the ones about burning people to death for adultery; having unruly kids stones by your neighbors; killing people who engage in homosexual activity -- and a host of others.

Amazing, by the way, how many people who claim to love and honor this god simply decide to ignore all that stuff.

As an agnostic, I have a problem with that kind of reasoning.

Who cares what one "believes in" or "does not believe in."

If there is a god who handles things the way you are saying the god of the Bible does -- do you think "not believing" will be a valid defense?

Djinn, was it John Houston or Charleton Heston's voice? These are important questions. Accuracy in reporting is vital, considering the sloppy reporting in the bible. quote]

I'm fairly sure it was John Houston in the movie "The Bible," but if it wasn't it should have been. Heston would have been in "The Ten Commandments," but that might have been DeMille.

In any case, Adam & Eve must have been on pretty intimate terms with God for them to feel bold enough to disobey him.

God the Father of those days was like Djinn the Father in my house. Tell them not to do something and I've just assured that they will.

Frank Apisa wrote:

In effect, that was what Adam and Eve were doing -- trying to find out what is good and what is evil.

Look what it got them!

But they already knew what God wanted. He told them quite explicitly that his want was for them not to eat from the tree. When did God tell them to go find out the differnce between good and evil?

But you are missing the point here, Fishin'.

True -- they knew what the god of the Bible wanted -- but they did not know that obeying was good and disobeying was bad. As far as they were concerned -- since they did not know the difference between good and evil -- it was a choice of no consequence.

They simply exercised their "free will" and chose to disobey -- one of the two choices, which for them had absolutely no difference as far as good or bad or moral or evil or anything.

Do you honestly not see that -- or are you just having a bit of fun with this myth?

(But in reality, or at least the reality of the bible, Adam and Eve were "married" by God when she was created and they didn't have sex until after they had already been bannished from Eden.)

one that always bothered me,who did Cain marry? There werent any other people around were there? Somebody had a bad writing day when they made up these stories.

fishin' wrote:

(But in reality, or at least the reality of the bible, Adam and Eve were "married" by God when she was created and they didn't have sex until after they had already been bannished from Eden.)

Not so. It doesn't say if they had sex there or not, though god did tell them right from the get-go to "be fruitful & multiply." It doesn't say how long they were their either.

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Do you honestly not see that -- or are you just having a bit of fun with this myth?

I do admit that I always enjoy having fun with this one. No harm in that. Better to keep a little levity in the dicsussion than to have people become pissy.

I get the point you are trying to make but you keep injecting "good" and "bad" into the picture and I maintain that they are irrelevant to the original question.

Your question was whether or not they sinned and I maintain that "sin" has nothing to do with good or bad. "Sin" is a function of "do" or "not do". It doesn't matter if whether what is done is good or bad. "Sin" is a simple binary process.

They were simply told "You can do anything except X." and doing anything other then "X" is not a sin. Doing "X", for any reason and with any intent, is a sin.

That being said, we don't know how "God" looks at the value of any given sin other than in the broadest terms. If a person commits a sin and is unaware that the action is "bad" the punishment may be very different from another person who knowingly commits the same sin. This is where "good" and "bad" may play into things but in either case the sin is still there.

Whew! I was really worried there. I know you to be a reasonable poster -- and I just could not be sure if you were serious or mixing serious with a bit of fooling around. I feel much, much better now.

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They were simply told "You can do anything except X." and doing anything other then "X" is not a sin. Doing "X", for any reason and with any intent, is a sin.

They were???

Were you privy to a discussion that never got reported in the Bible?

The Bibles I have (I have 15 of them; Catholic, Protestant; and Jewish) only say that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -- they would die.

It gets a little cloudy here! Some Bibles say that they will die the same day they eat of the fruit; some just say they will die (indeterminant); and some seem to indicate that if they eat the fruit, the same day they will have sealed their doom for some future point.

But at no point do I see any explanation given to them about sin.

Can you flesh out your thoughts on that.

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That being said, we don't know how "God" looks at the value of any given sin other than in the broadest terms. If a person commits a sin and is unaware that the action is "bad" the punishment may be very different from another person who knowingly commits the same sin. This is where "good" and "bad" may play into things but in either case the sin is still there.

Could be -- but once again, we both agree that they did not know the difference between good and bad; moral and evil -- and their punishment is considered the most severe punishment the god ever is recorded as inflicting.

Not only were they thrown our of what is nominally paradise, they were caused to suffer -- and every human being ever born after them had to share their punishment.

So while your argument sounds good without reflection -- after taking into consideration the punishment and the fact that they did not know good from evil -- it really falls flat.