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Adam and Eve -- Did they sin?

 
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2003 06:24 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
So you are saying that we humans can sin without even knowing that we are committing a sin?


Yup.

Quote:
And if you are saying that, don't you think a god who would set things up that way is not being especially fair?


It's the price of free will baby!

But, if one is to believe that "sin" matters then they are aware of the possible existance of "God" and would presumably seek out what this God wants and/or doesn't want. Again, if one is to believe the bible then in that same bible they'd find the rules laid out for them in the form of the 10 Commandments as well as the methods for redemption for any past sins they may have committed. We each have the free will to choose to do this or not.

If the individual doesn't believe that the concept of sin matters or that "God" exists then the entire issue is moot isn't it? If there is no God then the entire concept of "sin" is made up and there is no God there in the end to seek retribution for anyone having commited any of them.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2003 06:36 pm
fishin' wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
So you are saying that we humans can sin without even knowing that we are committing a sin?


Yup.

Quote:
And if you are saying that, don't you think a god who would set things up that way is not being especially fair?


It's the price of free will baby!

But, if one is to believe that "sin" matters then they are aware of the possible existance of "God" and would presumably seek out what this God wants and/or doesn't want.


In effect, that was what Adam and Eve were doing -- trying to find out what is good and what is evil.

Look what it got them!


Quote:
Again, if one is to believe the bible then in that same bible they'd find the rules laid out for them in the form of the 10 Commandments as well as the methods for redemption for any past sins they may have committed. We each have the free will to choose to do this or not.


Actually, one would find a lot more than just 10. Don't forget the ones about burning people to death for adultery; having unruly kids stones by your neighbors; killing people who engage in homosexual activity -- and a host of others.

Amazing, by the way, how many people who claim to love and honor this god simply decide to ignore all that stuff.

Quote:
If the individual doesn't believe that the concept of sin matters or that "God" exists then the entire issue is moot isn't it? If there is no God then the entire concept of "sin" is made up and there is no God there in the end to seek retribution for anyone having commited any of them.


As an agnostic, I have a problem with that kind of reasoning.

Who cares what one "believes in" or "does not believe in."

If there is a god who handles things the way you are saying the god of the Bible does -- do you think "not believing" will be a valid defense?
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2003 06:39 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Let me get this straight; god creates adam and eve as sexual beings, then tells them they must not have sex. If anybody knows anything about sex drive, who's kidding who? c.i.


You should try reading the bible someday c.i. Whether you believe anything in it or not is irrelevant but you'd have known that there was no such limitation on Adam and Eve. The one and only sin they could possibly commit was eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge.

Having sex with someone that isn't your spouse didn't become a sin until Act VII, you know, right after the 3rd intermission when that Moses character stepped in with those stone tablets... Wink

(But in reality, or at least the reality of the bible, Adam and Eve were "married" by God when she was created and they didn't have sex until after they had already been bannished from Eden.)
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2003 06:39 pm
Isn't eating the apple just symbolic of something else? c.i.
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2003 06:52 pm
hmmmm, tomatoes or pomegranates...I don't know Dys and Ceili, pomegrantes sound more likely in that part of the world.

Djinn, was it John Houston or Charleton Heston's voice? These are important questions. Accuracy in reporting is vital, considering the sloppy reporting in the bible.

Like Sophia, I'm pretty sure I would have sinned, in more ways than one, in Eden. Think of all the opportunities to discover forbidden knowledge! (not to mention sex, sex, sex)
Of course, knowing that a supposedly just god condemned the rest of humanity for these most innocent of sins, makes it easy for me to remain an unbeliever.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2003 06:56 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
In effect, that was what Adam and Eve were doing -- trying to find out what is good and what is evil.

Look what it got them!


But they already knew what God wanted. He told them quite explicitly that his want was for them not to eat from the tree. When did God tell them to go find out the differnce between good and evil?



Quote:
Actually, one would find a lot more than just 10. Don't forget the ones about burning people to death for adultery; having unruly kids stones by your neighbors; killing people who engage in homosexual activity -- and a host of others.


True enough..

Quote:
Amazing, by the way, how many people who claim to love and honor this god simply decide to ignore all that stuff.


Hey, when you go to a buffet do you eat everything out there? lol

Quote:
As an agnostic, I have a problem with that kind of reasoning.

Who cares what one "believes in" or "does not believe in."


According to that same bible, God does.

Quote:
If there is a god who handles things the way you are saying the god of the Bible does -- do you think "not believing" will be a valid defense?


As an agnostic, I don't KNOW that God exists. I do KNOW what people claim he wants and what the bible SAYS he wants. But that's what being an Agnostic is all about isn't it? Sort of an eternal crap shoot. One can either believe and do the best they can to live up to what they believe that God wants, they can choose to not believe or they can sit on the fence and take their chances on whether there is or isn't an after-life and, if there is, where they'll be spending it. One way or the other we each exercise our own free will on the matter (at least once we're away from the watchful eye of mom and dad..).

It's a 50/50 proposistion. From my view, the holy rollers are just trying to hedge their bets.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2003 09:15 pm
Moot question for me, I don't believe in the concept of sin. Personal morality maybe, but not sin.
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Djinn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 07:58 am
Diane wrote:
Djinn, was it John Houston or Charleton Heston's voice? These are important questions. Accuracy in reporting is vital, considering the sloppy reporting in the bible. quote]

I'm fairly sure it was John Houston in the movie "The Bible," but if it wasn't it should have been. Heston would have been in "The Ten Commandments," but that might have been DeMille.

In any case, Adam & Eve must have been on pretty intimate terms with God for them to feel bold enough to disobey him.

God the Father of those days was like Djinn the Father in my house. Tell them not to do something and I've just assured that they will.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 09:17 am
fishin' wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
In effect, that was what Adam and Eve were doing -- trying to find out what is good and what is evil.

Look what it got them!


But they already knew what God wanted. He told them quite explicitly that his want was for them not to eat from the tree. When did God tell them to go find out the differnce between good and evil?


But you are missing the point here, Fishin'.

True -- they knew what the god of the Bible wanted -- but they did not know that obeying was good and disobeying was bad. As far as they were concerned -- since they did not know the difference between good and evil -- it was a choice of no consequence.

They simply exercised their "free will" and chose to disobey -- one of the two choices, which for them had absolutely no difference as far as good or bad or moral or evil or anything.

And the reason they didn't know -- according to the Bible -- was that the god of the Bible deliberatedly withheld that information from them.

Do you honestly not see that -- or are you just having a bit of fun with this myth?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 09:29 am
What I don't see is why this loving, just god would punish all of humanity for the sins of two people. We were never given the choice, and was exposed to sin as soon as we were born. c.i.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 10:17 am
HEY YOU PEOPLE!

How did we get off on sex? (I should've phrased that better.)

God gave Eve to Adam, so sex was regally approved.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 10:21 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
But you are missing the point here, Fishin'.

True -- they knew what the god of the Bible wanted -- but they did not know that obeying was good and disobeying was bad. As far as they were concerned -- since they did not know the difference between good and evil -- it was a choice of no consequence.

They simply exercised their "free will" and chose to disobey -- one of the two choices, which for them had absolutely no difference as far as good or bad or moral or evil or anything.


I get the point you are trying to make but you keep injecting "good" and "bad" into the picture and I maintain that they are irrelevant to the original question.

Your question was whether or not they sinned and I maintain that "sin" has nothing to do with good or bad. "Sin" is a function of "do" or "not do". It doesn't matter if whether what is done is good or bad. "Sin" is a simple binary process. They were simply told "You can do anything except X." and doing anything other then "X" is not a sin. Doing "X", for any reason and with any intent, is a sin.

That being said, we don't know how "God" looks at the value of any given sin other than in the broadest terms. If a person commits a sin and is unaware that the action is "bad" the punishment may be very different from another person who knowingly commits the same sin. This is where "good" and "bad" may play into things but in either case the sin is still there.

Quote:
Do you honestly not see that -- or are you just having a bit of fun with this myth?


I do admit that I always enjoy having fun with this one. No harm in that. Better to keep a little levity in the dicsussion than to have people become pissy.
0 Replies
 
Monger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 10:35 am
fishin' wrote:
(But in reality, or at least the reality of the bible, Adam and Eve were "married" by God when she was created and they didn't have sex until after they had already been bannished from Eden.)

Not so. It doesn't say if they had sex there or not, though god did tell them right from the get-go to "be fruitful & multiply." It doesn't say how long they were their either.

farmerman wrote:
one that always bothered me,who did Cain marry? There werent any other people around were there? Somebody had a bad writing day when they made up these stories.

He married his sister. This isn't close to the Bible's most risqué stories.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 11:21 am
Monger wrote:
fishin' wrote:
(But in reality, or at least the reality of the bible, Adam and Eve were "married" by God when she was created and they didn't have sex until after they had already been bannished from Eden.)

Not so. It doesn't say if they had sex there or not, though god did tell them right from the get-go to "be fruitful & multiply." It doesn't say how long they were their either.


You're right. I should have said "Adam and Eve were "married" by God when she was created and there is no mention of them having sex until after they had already been bannished from Eden."
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 11:25 am
fishin' wrote:
Quote:
Do you honestly not see that -- or are you just having a bit of fun with this myth?


I do admit that I always enjoy having fun with this one. No harm in that. Better to keep a little levity in the dicsussion than to have people become pissy.


Whew! I was really worried there. I know you to be a reasonable poster -- and I just could not be sure if you were serious or mixing serious with a bit of fooling around. I feel much, much better now.

But, I do want to take issue with your reasoning -- and I want to do it as an intellectual exercise. I promise not to get prissy. (I love that word!) I hope you take this on in the same spirit in which I offer it.

Quote:
I get the point you are trying to make but you keep injecting "good" and "bad" into the picture and I maintain that they are irrelevant to the original question.

Your question was whether or not they sinned and I maintain that "sin" has nothing to do with good or bad. "Sin" is a function of "do" or "not do". It doesn't matter if whether what is done is good or bad. "Sin" is a simple binary process.

I don't necessarily agree with this notion, but for the sake of what I want to argue here, let us suppose that you have it right.

You follow that up with...

Quote:
They were simply told "You can do anything except X." and doing anything other then "X" is not a sin. Doing "X", for any reason and with any intent, is a sin.


They were???

Were you privy to a discussion that never got reported in the Bible?

The Bibles I have (I have 15 of them; Catholic, Protestant; and Jewish) only say that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -- they would die.

It gets a little cloudy here! Some Bibles say that they will die the same day they eat of the fruit; some just say they will die (indeterminant); and some seem to indicate that if they eat the fruit, the same day they will have sealed their doom for some future point.

But at no point do I see any explanation given to them about sin.

Can you flesh out your thoughts on that.

Quote:
That being said, we don't know how "God" looks at the value of any given sin other than in the broadest terms. If a person commits a sin and is unaware that the action is "bad" the punishment may be very different from another person who knowingly commits the same sin. This is where "good" and "bad" may play into things but in either case the sin is still there.


Could be -- but once again, we both agree that they did not know the difference between good and bad; moral and evil -- and their punishment is considered the most severe punishment the god ever is recorded as inflicting.

Not only were they thrown our of what is nominally paradise, they were caused to suffer -- and every human being ever born after them had to share their punishment.

So while your argument sounds good without reflection -- after taking into consideration the punishment and the fact that they did not know good from evil -- it really falls flat.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 11:37 am
I have always viewd the eating of the apple as a symbolic way to describe the self knowledge humans gained as they evolved. Before that they were simply animals. Now, self knowledge has made them into a laboring class with foreknowledge of death. The garden would be the world as they percieved it when they were ignorant.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 12:06 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Whew! I was really worried there. I know you to be a reasonable poster -- and I just could not be sure if you were serious or mixing serious with a bit of fooling around. I feel much, much better now.


Nah, many people take religion way to seriously IMO. Why can't it be discussed without brow-beating, fire and brimstone?

Quote:
Quote:
They were simply told "You can do anything except X." and doing anything other then "X" is not a sin. Doing "X", for any reason and with any intent, is a sin.


They were???

Were you privy to a discussion that never got reported in the Bible?

The Bibles I have (I have 15 of them; Catholic, Protestant; and Jewish) only say that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil -- they would die.

It gets a little cloudy here! Some Bibles say that they will die the same day they eat of the fruit; some just say they will die (indeterminant); and some seem to indicate that if they eat the fruit, the same day they will have sealed their doom for some future point.

But at no point do I see any explanation given to them about sin.

Can you flesh out your thoughts on that.


Well, you may have misread what I was saying. Acording to the bibles I've read they were told they could do anything they chose to do in Eden with the exception of eating from the Tree of knowledge.

Genisis 2:15 through 2:17 says:

"The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." " (This is from the "New International Version" of the Bible.)

Anyway, so the Tree of Good and Evil is "X". The rest of the prior comment was all MY words, not anything from the bible. It is my explanation of the meaning of the first statement - not quotes.

Quote:
Quote:
That being said, we don't know how "God" looks at the value of any given sin other than in the broadest terms. If a person commits a sin and is unaware that the action is "bad" the punishment may be very different from another person who knowingly commits the same sin. This is where "good" and "bad" may play into things but in either case the sin is still there.


Could be -- but once again, we both agree that they did not know the difference between good and bad; moral and evil -- and their punishment is considered the most severe punishment the god ever is recorded as inflicting.

Not only were they thrown our of what is nominally paradise, they were caused to suffer -- and every human being ever born after them had to share their punishment.

So while your argument sounds good without reflection -- after taking into consideration the punishment and the fact that they did not know good from evil -- it really falls flat.


Their punishment may be the most severe ever recorded but then we don't really know what other punishments he could have come up with do we? If, as the bible claims, God is omnipotent, he surely could have come up with something worse than what we have. He could have left out any possibility for any form of redemption as a starter.

But of course the paragraph you are commenting on here has nothing to do with the original question of whether or not a sin was committed. It all deals with post-sin retribution.

Your ratinale for saying it wasn't a sin is the equeal of a "not guilty by reason of insantity" verdict in a murder trial. That verdict however, doesn't say that no one was killed. In fact it implicitly acknowledges that someone was killed but the verdict holds that that the person who did the killing can't be held responsible for their actions.

In my view, sin holds the same way. Commiting the sin and teh determination of whether or not there is retribution to paid for doing so are two seperate items.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 01:20 pm
Frank, Maybe the citation that they would die on the same day is symbolic of a much longer period similar to the seven days it took to create the world. c.i.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 01:29 pm
Fishin

Sounds like you are very commited to that explanation -- and I've decided to just let it lie.

I appreciate the fact that you engaged me on this issue.




ci

Could be!

Myths are like that.
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Equus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 02:11 pm
My girlfriend points out that in "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", the meaning of life is "42".

There are 42 dots on a pair of dice.

Therefore, God didn't throw Adam & Eve out of paradise: He threw out to them a pair of dice.

Q.E.D. : Life is a crapshoot.
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