ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2003 09:11 pm
That's interesting, c.i. Art in the mines. Did they do it up above, or in the mines...and if so, I wonder in what circumstances in the mines. Gee.

Kull91, welcome here at a2k!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2003 09:14 pm
It was all carved in the mines. Most, if not all, of the carvings were done where they now exist. I am amazed at the artistic talent of those salt miners. As I said before, it should be considered as one of the eight wonders of the world. c.i.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Jul, 2003 11:55 pm
Mines tomorrow, Auschwitz friday - on the way out of the country. My unworthy friends have not called yet, I may be left alone to tackle all those pubs! oh well. nimh, i did walk around Kazimierz, it is charming, especially all the little cafes they are putting in. It lost its jewish character during the war and what puzzled me is that there were no signs, no memorials, no nothing, about what has happened there. only one sigh on the main square describing how it always was an open air market, but the fact that thousands of jews were collected on that square to be sent first to ghettos across the river and then to auschwitz or elsewhere, not a word. felt strange. must run to the conference, but i will escape into the town soon i think.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 12:35 am
Well, perhaps not the right place for a horse ride.

I have mixed stuff in my history..not immediate, (ah've got other stuff in my own), but re the holocaust, I have a pamphlet of photos from dachau in with my father's stuff. I saw it early in my life, probably in the early fifties, at ten or so. Too early (but not for anyone who went through it.) I saw that before I ever heard of Anne Frank, more sorrow.

a client of mine in Los Angeles was polish, catholic, in a camp for three years..
and she saw the catholics as persecuted.

I myself don't know anything..really, of what people went through. incomprehensible, some of it. I guess I know this land has a complicated and argued history.

I add that I have no doubt of the holocaust, only doubt for our understanding it. And it all goes on...not only that one memorable one, but more.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 09:11 am
osso, Not many know it, but did you know that the Japanese American's 442 Infantry liberated the prisoners in Dauchau? c.i.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 11:22 am
Germans also had an aircraft whatchumacallint umm, turbines or whatnot plant INSIDE the salt mines for some time during the war. they were kicked out in 1945. Went to the Salt mines just now, very very impressive. albeit a bit kitsch-y, it was in impressive kitch. will write more later, must wait for a phone call...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jul, 2003 01:51 pm
dag, Were you squeezed like sardines on the elevator down the shaft to the mines? LOL c.i.
0 Replies
 
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 05:43 am
@littlek,
The Pope was from Wadowice, the salt mines are at Wieliczka.
0 Replies
 
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 05:55 am
Cracow survived the war intact, so many medieval buildings, streets there. Good for just getting a sense of things medieval.
The old university buildings.
Capital of Poland until the 16th century, when one king decided he would feel better in the countryside, meaning Warsaw.
Cracow is the intellectual capital of Poland, but for 60s-70s style intellectuals, and has a Catholic atmosphere. Rather retro today, tourism, and Warsaw is the place where things happen.
Another such city is Copernicus' Torun.
If you are in Cracow, go also to Zakopane, the ski resort, inhabited by our highlanders.
dagmaraka will know about Janosik.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Mar, 2009 05:11 pm
Come to think of it Copernicus was the first to state that the earth revolved around the sun and he ran into trouble with the Pope. Looking at the map Poland is almost as large as Germany.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Mar, 2009 01:26 am
Cracow was nice enough, if small and too busy with tourists. What stood out was actually mostly not there anymore -the Jewish ghetto. Left mostly to imagination, fascinating enough though. And of course a trip to Auschwitz which is not far. Atmosphere wise the city reminded me of Vilnius, Ljubljana or Bratislava - river, hill, old center around them... Nice small central european towns.
I know Janosik, of course. Been to his native house in Terchova... not sure what he's got to do with Cracow though.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Mar, 2009 09:07 am
@dagmaraka,
When I visited Poland many decades ago, I remember visiting the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw.
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 10:13 am
@cicerone imposter,
Look, Germans created ghettoes for Jews in the worst, dilapidated districts.
But before the war, although there were some districts in cities with a Jewish majority, Jews were intermingled with the Polish population. Many people were just Jewish-Polish, like in the US now.
Then came the war, and only 5% of Polish Jews were left. Then came the year 1968, when the party quelled unrest by claiming that the protest leaders were Jews. After expulsions, only 5000 Jews remained in Poland.
Many synagogues were turned into ordinary buildings after the war, for lack of worshippers.
If you go to Warsaw nowadays and see the "Jewish ghetto", it's nothing concrete. The buildings were destroyed in the fighting in 1943.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Warsaw_Ghetto_destroyed_by_Germans,_1945.jpg
The ghetto was very close to the old town, so in the city centre.
150 Jews are left in Cracow, a result of the war. But you can see several synagogues in the Kazimierz district.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazimierz (at the bottom)
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 10:22 am
@literarypoland,
literarypoland wrote:

Look, Germans created ghettoes for Jews in the worst, dilapidated districts.


That's correct, especially after the provincial ("particular") council of Wrocław in 1267.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 10:28 am
@literarypoland,
lp, Thanks for the update on the Polish Jews. My trip to Eastern Europe was so long ago, much of the details have been forgotten. As with updates on a2k about Russia where I have visited twice, it's also interesting to hear about Poland, a country very few Americans have visited when I did decades ago. I still remember my hotel room looking down on one of the main streets in Warsaw where people were walking towards the subway to go to work. I also remember going to a piano concert to listen to a music composed by Liszt, because our friends with my wife and I went to listen to the San Francisco Symphony play at the local college last week with Liszt on the program.

Our life experiences seem to mix together with so many other experiences that reminds us what we have done so many years ago.
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 10:35 am
@talk72000,
Poland and Germany - two totally different cultures. Surprisingly, many Germans were Polonized in the Middle Ages. Copernicus was a Polish citizen, and as such is a part of our old kingdom.
In population, Germany is twice bigger in a territory of a similar size.
German Wikipedia is 1.5 times larger than ours.
German GDP (purchase parity) is twice ours.
German investors are very active here, and Germany is the top importer of Polish products. Most Poles drive German cars. Many newspapers are German-owned. As long as our culture, language are not under threat, we accept this state of things.
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 10:38 am
@cicerone imposter,
"I still remember my hotel room looking down on one of the main streets in Warsaw where people were walking towards the subway to go to work."

Well, there had been no subway in Warsaw until the 1980s.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 11:14 am
@literarypoland,
My visit then was probably after 1980. I tried to find my travel history log, but couldn't find it. I'll continue to look for it, and report back when my trip to East Europe happened.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 11:24 am
@cicerone imposter,
I found it; my visit to Eastern Europe was in 1994. That was 15 years ago, but it seems like much longer.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Mar, 2009 11:36 am
@literarypoland,
literarypoland wrote:
Surprisingly, many Germans were Polonized in the Middle Ages. Copernicus was a Polish citizen, and as such is a part of our old kingdom.


"Royal Prussia" (besides smaller eastern parts) was annexed by the Kingdom of Poland in 1466 - but Copernicus' parents were born as "Germans" (actually Prussians - but both families lived in the Hanseatic town of Toruń, in the Teutonic Order territory).
 

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