My Novel In Progress

Re: My Novel In Progress
Seems pretty good, just a couple of the kinds of things that strike me as a reader, quite often actually when reading published stuff of this type.

Praise: good evocation of place and setting.

Now some nitpicks... remember this is just my own opinion.

Smaller, less conspicuous rodents scurried up the skeletal trunks

Owls aren't rodents.

Numerous pieces of it showered lightly down

"Of it" is redundant and clumsy

none of them paid it any heed

mismatch - "numerous pieces" is plural, but "it" is singular


They maneuvered through the dense foliage in a single-file fashion,

in single file?

a leader with two companions trailing doggedly in its wake.

her wake. "It" suggests a non-human leader

The one that paved the way for its two followers

Led the way. "Paved the way" is a metaphor for doing preliminary work that enables later developments, unless she actually physically laid paving stones down.

her followers, or the followers, in fact the two followers are implied by her leading the way, and need not be mentioned.

clutched a small parcel to her side swaddled in cords of dark cloth, concealing the curves and contours of its shape so that its contents remained unrecognizable.
Hmm... Swaddled? A bit "purple"... is this a swords-and-sorcery genre novel? Maybe OK for that but otherwise... hmmm....

Too may "its". Replace the second one with "the"

Nothing could afford to be overlooked.

"afford to be" can (and should) disappear.

Each traveler's hood was wide enough to hide their heads from view.

their head or give gender

Like the mouth...

their faces are like a cavern?

As in the mouth of a gaping cavern?

The garments worn underneath their flowing cloaks had been carefully chosen, blending into their cloaks

Repetition of "cloaks"

and the darkness pressing in around them, meant to lend the desired effect of them being invisible.

meant... desired... redundant repetition

To all but the most scrutinizing of eyes,

clumsy. The sharpest of eyes

it would appear as though nothing but slender, indistinct shadows had passed them by. And that's just what

Wrong tone. Conversational. That is just what...

just what the three travelers had intended

Wrong tense. the three travelers intended.

Like I said, just nitpicks. All novelists benefit from editing, even the big guys!

Allright. Thanks for your critique! I really like it when people comment something other than 'I liked it' or 'it was great.' But when people point things out that could be fixed, that's what's really beneficial to me. There's just a couple of things, however, that I have questions on.

none of them paid it any heed

mismatch - "numerous pieces" is plural, but "it" is singular

Wait...so for this one, would you like for me to say instead, 'none of them paid them any heed'? Because that's the plural form. It just doesn't sound right to me.

Hmm... Swaddled? A bit "purple"... is this a swords-and-sorcery genre novel? Maybe OK for that but otherwise... hmmm....

What are you talking about?! What does "purple" mean? And there's nothing irregular about the word 'swaddle.' It simply means 'to wrap'. So if I said 'wrapped,' it would basically mean the same thing. But if I said 'wrap,' it wouldn't be considered a 'swords-and-sorcery genre novel?' Sorry, but I don't quite get it. What about the word 'swaddled' hints at that? Besides, the word 'swaddled' is actually more appropriate for what's in the package.


Nothing could afford to be overlooked.

"afford to be" can (and should) disappear.

What's wrong with 'afford to be?' It just adds an extra detail in there, so that you understand more clearly how vital it is that nothing be overlooked. You see, there will be consequences if something is overlooked, which is why I say that overlooking any detail is something that they can't afford to do. Make sense?

Like the mouth of a gaping cavern, their faces took refuge within the additional fabric, decreasing the likelihood that they would be recognized.

Would it be better if I said something like this?--"Like the mouth of a gaping cavern, the additional fabric allowed room for their faces to take refuge, decreasing the likelihood that they would be recognized." I see now that I read this sentence how you might get confused, though I have never had anyone else point this out to me before. But I'll change it anyways.

it would appear as though nothing but slender, indistinct shadows had passed them by. And that's just what

Wrong tone. Conversational. That is just what...


I had many people get in an argument over this. One of my critiquers in the past said that conversational tones are bad in writing. However, another said that conversational tones are now accepted. Which makes sense, because I've seen it a lot before in books I've read.

OK I'll give you them all except...



A "purple" passage is an over-written one. "Swaddled" is a fancy word meaning "wrapped".

Purple:

Ominously, the ill-favored ghostly moonlight shone its hellspawned silvery faerie light on his trusty gnome-forged cleaver of destiny that had split so many Orc skulls

versus

Plain:

The moonlight glinted on his sword

Ultimately it's a matter of taste, and yours and mine may differ. That may be why I fling most of this type of book down after about 5 pages.

The conversational tone thing - prose which veers all over the place, tone-wise, is tiring for the reader. It may be "accepted" nowadays, but not with everybody. It's amateur.

Well, I'm sorry that my writing disappoints you and that I seem "amateur" to you. I am grateful for the fact that you're trying to help me, as I can use all the help I can get (alright, I'll admit it, I'm not totally great, but I can't say I'm an amateur; I've been writing for awhile now). I'm sure that you're not trying to offend me or anything; you're probably just trying to be helpful, and I respect that. And I know that not everyone is going to like my writing. But I do ask that you don't assume things, like me being an "amateur." That might not be how you meant it, but that's how I interpreted it.

Oh, and another thing: I do understand that my writing can sometimes be wordy, but your example for the "purple" passage was a bit overexaggerated, in my opinion. This[I/]Ominously, the ill-favored ghostly moonlight shone its hellspawned silvery faerie light on his trusty gnome-forged cleaver of destiny that had split so many Orc skulls[B/] is nothing like this[I/] The one that paved the way for its two followers clutched a small parcel to her side swaddled in cords of dark cloth, concealing the curves and contours of its shape so that its contents remained unrecognizable.[B/] 'Swaddled' is really the only fancy word in there, whereas in your's I can spot plenty. 'Hellspawned', 'faerie', 'cleaver'....hello? I'm sorry, but if you're going to provide an example, at least give one that is not over the top.

Oh, and another thing: I do understand that my writing can sometimes be wordy, but your example for the "purple" passage was a bit overexaggerated, in my opinion. This[I/]Ominously, the ill-favored ghostly moonlight shone its hellspawned silvery faerie light on his trusty gnome-forged cleaver of destiny that had split so many Orc skulls[B/] is nothing like this[I/] The one that paved the way for its two followers clutched a small parcel to her side swaddled in cords of dark cloth, concealing the curves and contours of its shape so that its contents remained unrecognizable.[B/] 'Swaddled' is really the only fancy word in there, whereas in your's I can spot plenty. 'Hellspawned', 'faerie', 'cleaver'....hello? I'm sorry, but if you're going to provide an example, at least give one that is not over the top.

Oops, sorry for posting that twice. I didn't mean to. And some of that text was supposed to be bolded and italicized, but apparently it didn't work out too well.

Oh, I have a question for you (or for anyone who has the answer, as a matter of fact). Can I edit my posts? Because I've been trying to, but I just don't know how, or if it's an option at all.

Anyway, I'm really sorry that my writing so far hasn't quite suited your taste. Hopefully, as I post more of it, you'll enjoy it a little more than you do right now. If not, that's ok. As you said, it's all a matter of opinion. And everyone's entitled to his or her own opinion, after all.

So here's more. This is a continuation of the first chapter, just so you're aware. It's quite a long one.



Agile despite her burden, the leader of the trio sped through the constant vegetation sprouting every few feet of the forest floor. The second cloaked figure, who was following loyally where his companion had tread, allowed his footsteps to fall into an identical rhythm to his leader's. He was slim and gangly, towering far above his comrade's shoulders, and yet his movements were far from clumsy. Bringing up the rear was a stout third profile, his stocky legs relentlessly moving to keep up with the frenzied pace.

Though at least an hour had easily passed, judging by the position of the moon in the night sky, the travelers continued on their tireless pursuit, refusing to yield to the temptation of a brief rest.

Treading lightly beneath the endless intricate tapestries of light formed by the shadows of the interwoven branches towering above them, they pressed onward, evading the dreaded feeling of fatigue for the moment.

But an hour later, as they reached the forest's edge, they could no longer avoid it. It had caught up to them. Weariness weighed heavily upon their limbs and exhaustion was etched upon their hidden faces. Even the leader, who up until now had been unfazed, had fallen victim to Fatique's feared embrace as well. Half-heartedly and with all her strength drained, she moved with a willingness that seemed to be diminishing every second.

The trees and foliage had thinned to the dismay of the travelers, for the luxury of cover they had enjoyed was now vanishing rapidly. Clearings and small spaces within the undergrowth became more frequent as they entered into the final lag of their journey. The forest, so massive that the sheer size of it was incomprehensible, was coming to an end.

As they exited from this exotic labyrinth of trees and shrubbery, they were greeted by a foreign landscape. A few sparse trees dotted the land, but they by no means possessed the grandeur and majestic quality that their towering brethren had. They were merely shadows of them, invoking neither the awe nor the disbelief that their relations had. In fact, the three travelers hardly noticed them, passing them by without so much as a sidelong glance.

The terrain that they were now treading along had also noticeably changed. It was rugged, with hills rising interminably into the distance. As they neared yet another obstacle, a solitary hill that preceded all the rest, it rose upon its haunches and blotted out all else in their sight. Only after much exertion had they reached its top and were able to view what the hill had prevented them from seeing before.

Far ahead of them the innumerable hills vanished from sight, shrouded by a sudden mist. However, something else, because of its sheer size, was clearly visible.

It was a mountain, daunting and impregnable, with sloping sides of massive rock leading up to a craggy, imposing peak. The three companions drew breaths in awe as they gazed upon this colossal slab of rock. The hills and all else at its feet appeared miniscule and unthreatening in comparison, mere mockeries of its impressive stature.

After descending the first hill at an alarmingly faster rate than the speed in which they had ascended, they stumbled into a narrow valley between two undulating hills. A stream, so small that it was nearly unnoticeable, wound snake-like at the valley's base. If not for the travelers' keen sense of hearing, listening to the almost inaudible trickling of the water over pebbles and stones, they might have easily passed it by.

The travelers, using it as their guide, followed its curving path to the heart of the broad valley, where it suddenly came to a halt at the foot of a gully. Boulders surrounded the narrow ravine, and each of the travelers gratefully took the liberty of using them as seats. Exhausted, their breathing rapid and irregular, each of them waited for their thudding hearts to slow down to normal before choosing their next course of action.

Finally, the shortest and stockiest of the three gathered enough courage to speak.

"So, what is it we do now?" he asked in a low, gravelly voice.

"Now," the leader with the parcel responded, "we wait."

"Good," the shorter one grumbled back. "I could do with a little rest."

The leader placed the bundle gingerly upon a nearby boulder and then, with experienced fingers, deftly extracted a second package from within the voluminous folds of her cloak. It was miniature in comparison with the first, yet it was held with the same measured caution and carefulness. The leader seemed to eye it with some uncertainty.

The leader's fingers caressed the soft velvet wrapping that encased the unknown object. Then, delicately taking the corners of the cloth in her hands, she unwrapped it.

Re: My Novel In Progress
Booklovr, tastes do differ. Mine allies more with Contrex's taste.
I found the piece continually redundant, and way too bountiful with adjectives. Cut, cut, cut, and cut again. Watch out, the passive voice is often a weak voice. And watch out for messing up single pronouns with plural verb forms.



I'll give an edit a go, for text that I could read without wincing. Not that my attempt at the text is wonderful! Still, consider the concept that "less is more".


The air (crackled with/shimmered with/some other active verb) foreboding as the travelers stepped into the dark night.
An owl stopped hooting as they entered the clearing. Small rodents scurried, their claws furiously scraping the bark of nearby trees. Leaves and bark (showered lightly/drifted/rained down) as they entered the silent forest.

In single file, the three companions moved doggedly forward.
The leader clutched a parcel with cords of dark cloth concealing the contours of its shape. The travelers' faces took refuge within the fabric of the hoods of their cloaks.. The garments worn underneath had been carefully chosen, blending with their cloaks and the dark forest. To all but the most scrutinizing of eyes, it would appear as though nothing but slender, indistinct shadows had passed.

booklovr,

I think you have reacted a little harshly and defensively, against someone who selflessly gave their time to help you with your writing. The mature response is to accept the criticism and try to understand it...and hopefully grow and learn from it...rather than debate it, or to be offended by someone who was trying to help you.

The overly purple phrase used to demonstrate what was meant by "purple" was indeed over the top, as it's only purpose was to demonstrate by exaggeration.

I understand that he/she used exaggeration in order to stress his/her point, but the only word that I had in that suggested sentence that could have been considered even remotely wordy was the word 'swaddled.' And again, I think that it was the most appropriate word to describe what the traveler was holding, considering the contents of her package. 'Wrapped' just doesn't fit as well. You'd understand if you knew what was in the package, but unfortunately, I'm not going to reveal that to you just yet.

I have accepted his/her criticism. I have already said that I appreciate his/her criticism, but I guess I have to say it more than once for some people to understand. Which, don't get me wrong, I don't mind doing. I always appreciate anyone's criticism, but the thing is, I don't always agree with everything they suggest. I'm sorry. And what I don't like is when people hint negative things that they think about me and my writing. I'm sorry, but I don't really like it when people hint that I'm an amateur after only reading three or so paragraphs of my writing. I'm not sure if that's 'what he/she was hinting at, but that's what it seemed like. Contrex, if that's not what you meant by your comment, then I'd welcome you to say so. I apologize if that's not what you meant; it just seemed like that was what you were hinting at. I don't mean to sound...well, mean. It's just that when I read something that I consider could be offensive towards me, I often don't react very...well, nicely. Hope it makes sense now, and I hope I cleared everything up for you.

Ossobuco: I'm sorry to hear that you hated it that much. But if it really pains you to read my writing (as you say you 'winced' while reading the text), no one is forcing you to continue reading. Certainly, I wouldn't want you reading a piece of writing that you disliked with such a passion. Therefore, feel free to stop reading whenever you like. No one is making you read my writing.

'the passive voice is often a weak voice.' So then what voice would you rather me use instead? Sorry, but you didn't really mention a preference.

'Still, consider the concept that "less is more". ' Thanks for that. And I'm serious. That's something I couldn't agree more on. You wouldn't believe how condensed this version is from the original. Those of you that are complaining about this beginning would've been really overwhelmed by my first one. Believe me!

'The air (crackled with/shimmered with/some other active verb) foreboding as the travelers stepped into the dark night.'
Air can't crackle or shimmer with foreboding. There can be a feeling of foreboding in the air, which a character obviously feels, but the air never actually shimmers or crackles with foreboding. Foreboding to me sounds like something more ominous and oppressive, and when you say 'crackles' or 'shimmers', I just think of fireworks. I appreciate your advice, though, even though I don't agree with it.

'An owl stopped hooting as they entered the clearing.' Wait, when was there an owl hooting in the first place? You never mentioned that. How can it stop if it never started in the first place?

Secondly, you never describe their surroundings beyond 'dark night' and 'forest.' That doesn't tell a lot. You mention trees, but what do these trees look like? There are many variations of trees in this world: short, tall, fat, thin, etc. I could go on, but I won't. We know that it's a dark night, but are there stars out this night? These are some things that help create a better picture for the reader of the setting this scene takes place in. Just something to take into consideration.

'Leaves and bark (showered lightly/drifted/rained down) as they entered the silent forest.' Wait, if the rodents are just scurrying up the trunk of the tree, where there's only bark, how can leaves be drifting down as well?

'Small rodents scurried, their claws furiously scraping the bark of nearby trees.' Small rodents scurried...but where? You never say 'they scurried up a tree', so we as the reader could simply assume that they are scurrying on the ground and then all of a sudden their claws are scraping tree bark. How did that happen?

'In single file, the three companions moved doggedly forward.' I believe my version was 'leader with two companions trailing doggedly in its wake.' So there were only two travelers moving doggedly, and they were moving to catch up to their leader. In your version, they don't really have a motive to be moving doggedly forward. So you're basically saying that these three people were moving forward with persistence. But why? That needs to be established, I believe.

I have an interesting question to ask of you. You don't have to answer it if you feel it's information you would rather not disclose. But I was just wondering what your gender is. What I've heard from someone was that often girls tend to add more detail into a situation, while boys tend more to just focus on telling the actual story itself, without getting too caught up in details. What I'm guessing is that both of you (ossobuco and contrex) are males, based upon your tastes in writing. Sorry if I made any incorrect assumptions or offended either of you, but I'm just wondering if I guessed right.

Ossobuco, just so you understand this and don't get the wrong idea, I do appreciate that you took the time to critique my writing, even if you don't read any further from now on. I am grateful for it, and do agree with the whole 'less is more' concept, for the most part. But I do believe that often a sufficient amount of detail is necessary for your readers to understand what it is you're writing. It contributes to the overall image of what they're reading and helps to set the mood of what it is you're writing.

Re: My Novel In Progress
You crack me up, Osso.

How about if they destroy your confidence?

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2421864#2421864

btw - there's nothing wrong with being an an amateur

I will just address this "amateur" issue. When I used that word, I was not intending to be offensive, or to imply any kind of put-down. I was using it in its strict sense, to mean "not professional".

I am not a professional writer, or even an amateur one, but I have done a bit of editing, mainly for technical magazines, sure, but I have picked up a few notions of what makes prose flow, and of the mechanics of preparing text for publication, and of what just plain annoys the reader.

I would distinguish a "professional" writer from an "amateur" one thus: a professional writer, a novelist let us say, is one who writes, for publication, books that people will want to buy, who is aware of the publishing process, who is prepared to co-operate with editors, proof-readers, typesetters and (ultimately, and also primarily!) the reader. He or she is flexible, open to advice, and willing to consider, if not always to make, reasoned and constructive suggestions for alterations.

An "amateur" writer is one who writes for a hobby, for their own pleasure, for the joy of creating. Nothing wrong with that. However, they often do not know how, to put it bluntly, to write material that does not tire the reader. This is because hardly anybody else other than themselves ever reads their stuff. They never get any feedback, and often when they do, they get angry. (Pros do this too of course!) Creative writing classes can (I say "can" advisedly) help if they are run properly.

So that's what I meant. Able2know's "Original Writing" section seems to have a lot of very purple stuff in it, a great deal of it is sub-Tolkein type wizards-and-swords stuff, sometimes set on distant planets, and, I freely admit, I do not personally like this kind of stuff. If done well, I agree, it can be a pleasure to read. Even so, I read Tolkein when I was 18. I could not read him now.

People often put material up here for criticism, and then get all huffy when people give it. It would save bandwidth if they would indicate that they only require praise filled responses.

Finally, I will mention an extremely good piece of advice from Samuel Johnson to aspiring writers. I may not have the wording exactly right. He wrote, "Once you have written a chapter of your book, read it over to yourself, and, if you find a piece that you think is exceptionally fine, take up your pen and strike it out!"

Wait...so professionals don't write for their own pleasure? I think they do, actually. But whatever. I know I'm not anywhere near being a professional yet. But who really cares? It's just that what I had thought you were implying was that I was entirely inexperienced, which is not true. But now that I see that you're not...well, it's all good.

'People often put material up here for criticism, and then get all huffy when people give it.' That's true, but what I was doing was simply disagreeing with some of the things that they said. Is it wrong to disagree? I'm sorry if your impression was that I was getting 'huffy', but that's not what I was doing. I do like it when people give their honest opinion, rather than just the 'I like it' crap.

'It would save bandwidth if they would indicate that they only require praise filled responses.' Alright, here we go: I do NOT require only praise-filled responses! There. How's that? Now do you think that I'm one of those people?

I just don't want anyone thinking that I don't want you to reply negatively to my writing. I like and actually prefer it if you do because then I can fix what I'm doing wrong. But sometimes I do disagree with a suggestion that you give me, and I hope that none of you get offended by that. I'm not trying to offend anybody here, so if you ever get the feeling that I am, just tell me. I'll apologize, just as I'm apologizing now. I'm sorry if sometimes I disagree. I just thought that you all would understand if I didn't agree with absolutely everything that you said, but now I see that you don't. Please don't take this the wrong way. I LOVE it when you respond without praise-filled responses because I know that it will improve my writing. In fact, I encourage it.

Again, I'm really sorry if I gave the wrong impression in any way.

Oh, and Endymion: not everyone's going to like you're writing. Mine is definitely proof of that. I'm sorry that saying I didn't like what you were writing might have destroyed your confidence. You shouldn't let one person's opinion let you down entirely. I didn't like your style of writing, my critiquers don't like my style of writing. But hey! I don't care. It's just their preference. Everyone has different styles that they enjoy more than others. Write about whatever you want to write about. You will most certainly have people who don't like what your writing, but don't let that get in your way. I'm sorry for 'destroying your confidence' by giving you a negative opinion, but I can guarantee that that's not the only negative opinion you're going to have in your lifetime. If your confidence is destroyed by every single person who doesn't like what you're writing, then you'll be busier rebuilding your confidence than actually writing your novel. But if me saying I'm sorry again makes you feel better, then "I'm sorry."

Alright, now that that's all been said, it'd be nice to move on now and use this thread for its true purpose and the reason I started it in the first place: for people to critique my writing. I hope that it stays that way and doesn't turn into a thread where everybody's fighting over something. From now on, I pledge to do my best to not offend anyone, and I hope that everything can return back to the way it was. Does everyone agree?

If you read the posts you sent me - there was no constructive critique - in fact you hardly mention my writing at all - you were sarcastic and argumentative and I was more than patient.

What you did was disruptive, that's all.

And what the f*ck does 'sorry' mean around here?
We all have access to a keyboard - anyone can type "I'm sorry"
To be honest, it means zero.

And don't tell me to write about whatever I want to write about - like your opinion means anything to me. I don't need your permission.

For the record, I was NEVER sarcastic. You might've read something and probably thought, "that was probably meant to be sarcastic." But I'm telling you now, it really wasn't.

Ok, you want to know why I never got to contructively criticize your story? I simply mentioned that I didn't like the swearing thing and it turned into a huge argument. I was going to give you a constructive critique, but the whole blown up argument kind of side tracked me. But you want a constructive critique right now? I thought that your description was great and you are a great story teller. But to be honest, it's not quite a story I think I'd read. However (I'll say this once again), don't let my opinion get in your way. I'm not letting similar opinions get in my way of writing this.

It's true, I'll admit--anyone CAN type 'I'm sorry.' But what's sad is that there's no way to tell when people really mean it when you type it over the computer. You can say to someone, "I'm honestly sorry" and they still won't believe you, even when you say it from the heart. That's the kind of sorry that I was trying to say to you, but I can see that you totally disregarded it and don't accept it as the truth. Well, there's nothing I can do about it, I guess. I tried, and it's not the apologizer's fault when the person receiving the apology wards it off and chooses not to believe it. All they can do is try to say that they're sorry as honestly as they feel it, and if they're rejected then there's nothing more to do. I guess that's what I have to do now. I've tried my best, but I guess that's just not good enough.

And I never said that you needed my 'permission', though I guess that's how you interpreted it, strangely enough. What I was trying to do was give you some encouragement, but if you don't want me to do that, then that's fine. It's just another thing that I've tried to give to someone that they've completely rejected. But whatever. I've gotten over it. If someone doesn't want my encouragement, then I guess there's nothing else to do except to never give them encouragement again. After all, it seems that's what you want, right?