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Why aren’t they all just considered ridiculous?

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 07:13 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
I think that one of the important things on A2K is to keep the discussion on topic, (when it is a serious subject), and not get into pissing contests

Exactly - unless, I suppose, a pissing contest is what one actually comes here for...
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 08:36 am
A pissing contest is all that this thread could have logically been intended to instigate - unless the originator of it only wanted those likeminded to himself to attend. I mean c'mon, how does anyone with any belief in any religion at all approach with equanimity a question like "why aren't they all considered ridiculous?"
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 08:45 am
snood wrote:
A pissing contest is all that this thread could have logically been intended to instigate - unless the originator of it only wanted those likeminded to himself to attend. I mean c'mon, how does anyone with any belief in any religion at all approach with equanimity a question like "why aren't they all considered ridiculous?"


I have to agree with you. The question is couched in such a way, that the intent is obvious. It is sort of one of those "When did you stop beating your wife" kinds of questions! Laughing
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 10:02 am
I think I would enjoy poppin' a cool one with most of the folks here on a2k. About the only personal trait I glean from people's posts is their relative intelligence.

As far as getting one's point across, it certainly seems true that a respectful demeanor pays off in the long run.

Nevertheless, I miss the spice provided by Frank.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 10:21 am
Yes, Frank had a talent for getting under peoples skins. He was very entertaining.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 11:41 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
snood wrote:
A pissing contest is all that this thread could have logically been intended to instigate - unless the originator of it only wanted those likeminded to himself to attend. I mean c'mon, how does anyone with any belief in any religion at all approach with equanimity a question like "why aren't they all considered ridiculous?"


I have to agree with you. The question is couched in such a way, that the intent is obvious. It is sort of one of those "When did you stop beating your wife" kinds of questions! Laughing
By that token you would be respectful towards someone wrapped in tinfoil and eating coffee grounds on the basis of it being part and parcel of their belief. No giggling or eyeball rolling allowed.

Or if their faith dictates that they slaughter and cannibalize their "enemy" you must again showed the deserved respect.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 12:22 pm
Hi Chumly,

I've not read all the pages on this thread so forgive me if this has been covered.

The reason the religious are not just considered insane is that there is no consensus as to what constitutes "reality". In fact "religions" are particular versions of "reality" with local or parochial consensus. Such realities produce reciprocal social relationships amongst adherents such that alternatives may constitute a "danger" to social and self integrity of members. In this way adherents "cope with the world" whereas the "insane" are generally categorized by their inability to "cope". The fact that the "religious" and the "insane" both tend to ignore "logic" is insufficient in itself to tar them with the same brush*....that only comes when religious extremists seek to impose their "reality" on dissenters thereby creating a reactionary consensus of "threat".

(*We should bear in mind that "logic" and "evidence" are controversial issues even amongst scientists)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 01:01 pm
Leaving aside the idiotic and childish attempts on the part of Snood to pick a fight (which seems to the highest expression of his rhetorical arts)--i will, for the last time, point out to Habibi that i have more than once in this thread explained the difference between how i deal with religious crackpots (like Snood) in real life and online. Once again, if he can't be troubled to read the thread, i see no reason to be troubled to repeat what i've written on the subject.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 01:06 pm
Hey Snood, tell us your UFO story again . . . that one really cracks me up . . .
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 01:21 pm
By the way Habibi, you claim it is silly to criticize a Dutchman for his command of English--why don't you keep that in mind the next time you feel the urge to tell me what words mean in English.

Clown.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 01:21 pm
fresco wrote:
Hi Chumly,

I've not read all the pages on this thread so forgive me if this has been covered.

The reason the religious are not just considered insane is that there is no consensus as to what constitutes "reality". In fact "religions" are particular versions of "reality" with local or parochial consensus. Such realities produce reciprocal social relationships amongst adherents such that alternatives may constitute a "danger" to social and self integrity of members. In this way adherents "cope with the world" whereas the "insane" are generally categorized by their inability to "cope". The fact that the "religious" and the "insane" both tend to ignore "logic" is insufficient in itself to tar them with the same brush*....that only comes when religious extremists seek to impose their "reality" on dissenters thereby creating a reactionary consensus of "threat".

(*We should bear in mind that "logic" and "evidence" are controversial issues even amongst scientists)
Would you give the same weight (pun) to religious claims as you do molar mass? That would be lacking incisiveness (pun) don't you think? I am not assessing a religious person's ability to buy sensible shoes.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 03:43 pm
I give no weight to religious claims but that's not the point. Unlike them, my self integrity does not depend on such claims. Indeed my token attendance at some of their ceremonies, like weddings and funerals, may be wrongly interpreted by them as tacit support (= "evidence") ! This is the problem...religion is primarily a social phenomenon irrespective of its ad hoc subtext. "Reality" is ultimately about "agreement" not "objectivity".
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 05:16 pm
Setanta wrote:
Once again, if he can't be troubled to read the thread, i see no reason to be troubled to repeat what i've written on the subject.

I have read all the posts since the one that Phoenix made that I just quoted, and which I am asking about - and you have never addressed the question she asked after your first response to her.

In that response, the only answer you gave was the "if they force a fight on me, I will fight back and try to draw blood" one. And that one obviously doesnt apply, since we're not talking about fights that have been "forced on" you.

I dont know. You make it appear like you're just unwilling to answer that straight question, and so are trying to bait and bully me on random other stuff instead, like the usage of the word "snarl"..

Talking of which...

Setanta wrote:
By the way Habibi, you claim it is silly to criticize a Dutchman for his command of English--why don't you keep that in mind the next time you feel the urge to tell me what words mean in English.

Clown.

The point here would be that you actually DO have English as your native tongue. So yes, it was noteworthily ironic enough when you chided a non-native speaker for getting a word wrong - but did so incorrectly.

By the way, is this the newest Setanta etiquette? Ending every of your posts with a gratuitous personal insult? What gratification does that give you?

I dont know if you realise, but all it does is make you look like the Dick Cheney of A2K.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 11:30 pm
Fresco,
Am I to assume that any and all faith based coping mechanisms may well exempt the believer from my question as to: "Why aren't Christians / Jews / Moslems / Buddhists etc simply considered to be eccentric, crazy and ridiculous?" because "in this way adherents cope with the world whereas the insane are generally categorized by their inability to cope" unless or until they "seek to impose their reality on dissenters" at which point you are then likely to assess them as eccentric, crazy and ridiculous?

By that argument it would seem adherents to any faith based coping mechanism cannot be considered to be eccentric, crazy and ridiculous unless they "seek to impose their reality on dissenters". I'm not overly convinced that holds water holy or otherwise.

I cannot precisely see why a subjective claim that a given faith may represent a coping mechanism and/or the likelihood that the adherents seek to impose their reality on dissenters should represent a suitable yardstick.

As I mentioned (more or less) it would seem a more suitable measure would be simply how likely their overall views represent the plausibility of demonstrable conditions as best as one is able to assess them.

In our modern times at the least, religious belief does not represent the plausibility of demonstrable conditions as best as one is able to assess them.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 Jun, 2007 11:56 pm
There is no "yardstick" unless you advocate "naive realism". It is a fallacy to claim there is such a thing as "objective evidence" since all "data" is relative to the paradigm of the observer.

I agree that much of religion is "ridiculous" but for me so are many secular activities like "designer labels" or an intense interest in "sport".
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2007 12:03 am
OK but how precisely is molar mass relative to the paradigm of the observer?

You seem to be inferring that the level of a person's sanity is linked to their ability to use coping mechanisms without making any assments on whether said coping mechanisms have any rationality in and of themselves. In essence that the end justifies the means. I remember in math class I got the right answer by performing two operations incorrectly and I insisted I was right and demonstrated my (presumed) rationality with chalk and blackboard in front of the class. It was great fun and only a few people got the humor, I was not one of them till a bit later!
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2007 12:43 am
Chumly,

All physics and chemistry is based on generally accepted paradigms like the "existence of atoms". Since nobody has ever seen an atom, its "existence" equates to its "utility as a concept" within our aspirations to predict and control. As the details of prediction become more complex, "atoms" become too crude a concept and the paradigm shifts towards such concepts as "strings". The situation with "atoms" and "string theory" is similar that of "Newtonian Physics" and "Relativity". We can still successfully use Newtons laws etc in a range of cases, but these areas are a nested subset of the "wider picture".
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2007 01:09 am
I chose molar mass as I think it might stand rather more independently of prevailing theory (at least that was my hope, not that I'm a physics whiz by any means).
Quote:
Molar mass is sometimes confused with the related but distinct molecular mass. This is largely due to that when the molar mass and molecular mass are expressed in g/mol and u respectively they will almost always have similar but not identical numerical values. The molar mass is generally computed from isotopically weighted averages, whereas the molecular mass is the mass of a single molecule consisting of well-defined isotopes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molar_mass

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_%28unit%29

Good chatting with you, your posts are truly great, time to turn in!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2007 03:25 pm
I have explained more than once, Habibi, in this thread, why i treat religious remarks differently online than i do in real life. It can hardly be considered my fault if you can't understand that, or won't bother to check it out, or are too obtuse to acknowledge it. So i'm not going to play your game. I explained my position--if you want to debate it, quote one of my statements and argue with it.

On the other topic, you said that i had snarled. I said that i had not, and no one is in a better position to know that than am i, since you can't tell what my emotional frame of mind was when i made the remark. You came back with this:

nimh wrote:
Setanta wrote:
The snarling is all in your imagination, you overrate your significance to me.

"You great barking hypocrite" counts as snarling no matter what your disposition at the time of uttering it was. So you snarled with equanimity..


This demonstrates that your command of English is not sufficient to contradict me in the matter of whether or not i snarled. I provided a definition of snarl from a reputable source ("Answers-dot-com" uses the American Heritage Dictionary), and pointed out that all you have done is prove that you don't have much of a command of the English language.

To which you respond as follows:

nimh wrote:
"Embarrassing evidence of my lack of a complete command of the English language"? Are you serious? Why in heavens name should a Dutchman be embarassed for supposedly not getting the exact definition of the English word "snarl" right?


Yes, that's correct--you did not use the word snarl correctly, because it would require you to know what my tone of voice were had i spoken rather than written "great barking hypocrite." Not only did i write it rather than speak it, you have no evidence upon which to base the claim you make next:

Quote:
And you're not even correct! "Growling viciously" sounds like a perfect description for yelling, right from the bat, "you great barking hypocrite" at someone who only ever asked a politely-worded question. It doesnt matter a iota whether you were actually angry or not - the description is of demeanour, not of motivation or underlying feeling. You can easily "speak angrily" without actually being angry, as any actor (or parent or boss or whatever) will know.


In "netiquette," you'd have had evidence that i had "yelled" if it had been delivered all in caps, or in bold face, or in a large type face. None of those things were the case. You are making a claim that i were yelling, because your argument is feeble and needs your unsupported and exaggerated claim to make it seem plausible. But it isn't. I simply wrote at the end of my post: "Great Barking Hypocrite." I didn't, by the way, end a sentence or a post with "you great barking hypocrite." Note that you need to make a false statement in the failed attempt to support your claim.

Your claim is false. Your command of English is not sufficiently complete (note that from the outset i did not say that you have no command of English, just not a complete command) for you to correct me in such a matter. So if you say it foolish to criticize a Dutchman for a lack of a complete command of English, by your own logic it is equally as foolish, if not more so, for said Dutchman to attempt to tell me what words mean in English.

However, far more telling than that is that you have no way of knowing what my "demeanor" was at the time i wrote what i did. You assume that because you otherwise have no argument. You can only rely upon your silly attempt here to raise the tone to an hysterical level to support your claim. You have failed.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jun, 2007 03:54 pm
I think he snarled.
0 Replies
 
 

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