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Utopian society: is it possible and what would it take?

 
 
OGIONIK
 
Reply Sat 26 May, 2007 06:48 am
What would it take to create a utopian society?

Im no expert, but im sure i can list some things that would be neccessary.

1. free water
How can we create a utopia if we cant provide water for our population? all humans need water, its a basic. making it free, pure accessible to all, and most importanty, NOT METERED! massive desalinization farms could be a key, im sure the old sun warming/condensation method could be engineered to provide huge amounts of water with the right funding.

2. free food
Same as above, all humans need food, if its free, we dont need to waste time on it, and can dedicate our energies to something else.

3.free energy
In the old days it was firewood for heating things, coal for forging tools etc. In todays world electricity is king. With all the ways we can invest our money in wars, if we spect half that on creating solar panel fields and other things (im not 100% on this, this post is speculation mostly) we could be WAY WAY more energy effecient. Once again, THIS CANNOT BE METERED!

4. free information
At first one might ask: why free info? easy, ignorance is ,to me at least, the first and foremost way for corruption and greed to get a foothold on society and spiral us towards self-destruction. we already have the internet, and IMO the government will soon start regulating this HEAVILY.
Censorship is favorite tool of tyrants.

5. free labor
With the advent of robotics, in the near future i think we will soon have robots doing everything for us, it might lead to the extermination of the poor ( what need does the government have for humans when robots will work for energy cost only, and when big business gets ahold of advanced robots who can do any job with the right programming? im sure that they will cease to pay humans for the same jobs, and the poor get the manual labor jobs, which robots will surely dominate as they have almost unlimited strength and do not fatigue and do not require any creativity really..) Robots might solve the problem of slavery, but they could also be the bane of the unskilled laborers.

6. the end of war. war is the worst thing humanity can participate in. waste of money, human lives, resources, pollution the list goes on. enough said hehe. we could then spend all that money on useful things.

I'd appreciate any criticism regarding my thoughts (be as harsh as you like, the harsher the better actually ) and i implore you to add anything that you think is relevant.

*edit spelling
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 6,483 • Replies: 41
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2007 06:51 am
GODAMNIT ******* LAG! ugh im sorry i dont feel like fixing the rest of the typos :/
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2007 07:11 am
Re: Utopian society: is it possible and what would it take?
OGIONIK wrote:
2. free food
Same as above, all humans need food, if its free, we dont need to waste time on it, and can dedicate our energies to something else.


This is all a bit silly but I'll just pick on this one. Yes, free food would be wonderful. The energy you think could be dedicated to something else is already possible. It's called "farming". Dedicate your energy into growing/raising food and you'll have your free food. Problem solved.

All I see here on your list is "Gimmie! Gimmie! Gimmie!". It appears that your utopian society doesn't involve anyone actually doing anything other than consuming freebies.
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2007 07:33 am
well id have to be able to purchase land to farm on, and its all government controlled or too expensive. and yes, im very very poor. gimme gimme gimme? starvation eliminated? O_o i guess hehe

Well that could be added to the list, FREE LAND! thanks for the input Smile

I also forgot free health care. which IMO would become SUBSTANTIALLY easier and cost effective once we stop using inferior/poisonous ingredients to produce food out of want of higher profits.( pet food scare anyone?)

I know, why would people become doctors, dentists, farmers, repairmen, factory workers etc if they arent getting paid? That answer lies within each and every one of you reading this, why do YOU work? why did YOU pick your job? do you work? was it because it was fun and you love it, or because you want the money? i work because in this society i need the money, or i will simply starve to death or become reliant on eating garbage or stealing, neither of which are acceptable to me.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2007 07:37 am
Given that you'd have to be able to repeal human nature--no, it's not possible.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2007 07:53 am
A utopian society cannot be achieved by simply providing adequately for everyone. There is no real shortage of anything, however unevenly distributed.

It does sound a cliche, but the key to a utopian society is peace on earth. And it cannot be achieved by a war to end all wars. The only way is for every last one of the individuals inhabiting this planet to look into themselves and find the seed that breeds, and then pluck it like a weed. Fear is the key. It makes us justify all sorts of terrible actions and laws that in turn create the troubles we have today.
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2007 08:01 am
So its human nature how we are living now? i dont see any relevance to the topic, if we dont have to fight to survive, we wont fight. IMO the way we are living now is completely unnatural and goes against human nature...

Also i think the barter and trade system suits humanity the best, but our systems arent designed for it so it simply fails.

That would solve the problem of why people work, we would be responsible for our own livelihoods, not on someone handing us some paper to do mundane chores and mindless bs. some central trading areas would be ok, but cities in their current form are horrible for humanites future IMO , we are too concentrated.

Another issue would be crimes of passion , but im sure the jealousy we experience when our potential mate is with another competitor stems from fear of providing for anothers child, in this thoretical utopia birth could easily be controlled, i dont see how unwanted pregancy is still so rampant nowdays, i thought everyone agreed oral sex is 100x better than normal sex anyways Smile

for utopia to thrive we would also need to get rid of religon, and everyone heres should know why already.

also, i havent done any "hardcore" revisions, dont think these ideas are concrete.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2007 09:01 am
Perhaps possible. Cyracuz has a good idea with that a route there.

But is it even desirable?

What will you do with anyone who begs to differ with the one collective idea of utopia? Or those who simply get bored?

Kill them off or just opt for a Borg-like world? goofing..

Utopian ideals have a lot to do with hell on this earth, imo.

Peace, that I could go for. Peace is hard work though. And has it own set of problems.
Smile
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2007 09:14 am
I find it strange how many peoples lives would be lost and empty without work.

why is this? is it that hard to find contentment in life that one needs to be constantly distracted by obtaining money through work?
Thats all i see, money seems to be the goal of almost every person on the planet.

Work, it seems, is an addiction, not a necessity.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2007 10:56 am
Real work is what its all about.

It's almost as good as sex.

Almost.

Having to do a bunch of garbage simply to stay afloat because of the greedy bastards out there that make life tougher than need be, yeah that sucks.
And there is always work that needs doing that we don't want to do too. Greediness and laziness make a lot more garbage work than there needs to be, though.

Imagine feeling like you had nothing to contribute. Nothing to give or share.
That's life without work.

Don't need to receive a paycheck to be working. Some of the best are the severely underpaid or actually paying themselves to do their work!

ok, ok, i'm ranting.

utopia, utopia, ... fruitopia.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2007 11:06 am
SF has been playing with this idea for ages....

Best I've read recently is Aristoi by Walter Jon Williams.
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 May, 2007 08:35 pm
Random thoughts: were native americans a utopian society? IMO they were extremely close.(not having advanced technology doesnt affect whether or not they were a utopian society btw) they didnt "work" they just kept the requirements for staying alive met, without a real government too. And whats funny is that all we have that they didnt is things that make life easier(computers etc..), we are no more better off than they were. I know, no cellphones lifes not worth living anymore!)
*sidenote, i havent read anything about communism, but ima take a gander at the ideals being similar to how indians lived.

And on utopia going against human nature? hmm it seems to me THE STATE OF OUR SOCIETY TODAY IS COMPLETELY ARTIFICIAL, so how would a utopian society be going against human nature anymore than we already are? everyone here most likely wears clothes, eats processed foods etc..( why DO we wear clothes exactly?)we repress sexuality and im sure ill think of more later today.

O_o
0 Replies
 
akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 09:59 am
Define Utopian
I get an awful giggle out of persons assuming that aboriginal societies were anywhere near "utopian".

How many of you think that we could talk an Innuit girl back into an igloo after she's had a house with central heat and TV?

How many Sioux are moving out of mobile homes and back into teepees?

How many mothers want to see their kids starve or forgo antibiotics?

The capitalist system assures that if enough people want something then somebody will supply it.

Apparently more people want a warm place to sleep, something good to eat, a TV and a refrigerator than want the untrammeled freedom to freeze or starve which is the result if you remove the pecuniary stimulus to improve things.

As far as barter goes. Cash is simply a convenient way to store energies that you have already expended. Sure I could swap my labor involved in overhauling your motor for your computer but it's a lot simpler to swap for dollars which I can then swap for somebodies computer. This somebody may not need a motor job but he probably can use or store the cash easily enough till he needs something.

If no one receives a perceived benefit from a provided service then the service would not be provided. And we all would be poorer due to it's lack.
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 10:46 am
Curious how most of us seem to think that we're better off because of all our gadgets. That the quality of our lives are enhanced by it.

As long as the basic needs of life were satisified I do not think my life would be worse if I didn't know about central heating, computer games, brands and trademarks.
But now I do know about them, and I sometimes think that if I could somehow forget about all that, my life would be so much simpler.
0 Replies
 
akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 04:04 pm
Yes Cy, Life would be simpler if we did not have all these "useless" gadgets around.

But when I compared my list of useless gadgets with my spouses list the lists were VERY different Crying or Very sad

So who determines what gadgets should not be available to whoever wants them Question
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Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2007 05:20 pm
each should decide for themselves.
I am raised in a certain comfort, and forsaking that comfort will not be the same as never knowing it at all.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2007 02:05 am
I'm pretty sure native americans were AGAINST being assimilated into western cultures, i mean its not like we slaughtered them indiscriminately or anything.. oh wait, we did.

>.<

but you are mixing up utopian society and advanced technology.

the thing that makes a society utopian, ( well im assuming so..)
is open minded people. the only thing technology does is make life faster and easier.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2007 06:49 am
ogionik

I agree.

the thing that makes a society utopian, ( well im assuming so too..)
is open minded people.
One thing technology can easily do is fog up the mind with tons of superfluous concepts, making people stop trying to better themselves.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2007 07:38 am
Re: Define Utopian
akaMechsmith wrote:
I get an awful giggle out of persons assuming that aboriginal societies were anywhere near "utopian".

How many of you think that we could talk an Innuit girl back into an igloo after she's had a house with central heat and TV?

How many Sioux are moving out of mobile homes and back into teepees?

How many mothers want to see their kids starve or forgo antibiotics?

The capitalist system assures that if enough people want something then somebody will supply it.

Apparently more people want a warm place to sleep, something good to eat, a TV and a refrigerator than want the untrammeled freedom to freeze or starve which is the result if you remove the pecuniary stimulus to improve things.

As far as barter goes. Cash is simply a convenient way to store energies that you have already expended. Sure I could swap my labor involved in overhauling your motor for your computer but it's a lot simpler to swap for dollars which I can then swap for somebodies computer. This somebody may not need a motor job but he probably can use or store the cash easily enough till he needs something.

If no one receives a perceived benefit from a provided service then the service would not be provided. And we all would be poorer due to it's lack.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 May, 2007 07:39 am
Re: Define Utopian
akaMechsmith wrote:
I get an awful giggle out of persons assuming that aboriginal societies were anywhere near "utopian".

How many of you think that we could talk an Innuit girl back into an igloo after she's had a house with central heat and TV?

How many Sioux are moving out of mobile homes and back into teepees?

How many mothers want to see their kids starve or forgo antibiotics?

The capitalist system assures that if enough people want something then somebody will supply it.

Apparently more people want a warm place to sleep, something good to eat, a TV and a refrigerator than want the untrammeled freedom to freeze or starve which is the result if you remove the pecuniary stimulus to improve things.

As far as barter goes. Cash is simply a convenient way to store energies that you have already expended. Sure I could swap my labor involved in overhauling your motor for your computer but it's a lot simpler to swap for dollars which I can then swap for somebodies computer. This somebody may not need a motor job but he probably can use or store the cash easily enough till he needs something.

If no one receives a perceived benefit from a provided service then the service would not be provided. And we all would be poorer due to it's lack.


untrue.the capitalist assures that when someone wants something, they have to pay for it. not that it will be supplied.
0 Replies
 
 

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